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The Staff of SOH
Congrats to McMurray!!
- Thread starter eddie
- Start date
R
redriver6
Guest
yep i agree...just checking some numbers there are 4 drivers in the 'chase' with zero wins...Jamie Mac has 3. He is the only driver out of the 'chase' with 3 wins.
4 drivers in the chase with 0 wins means that theoretically a driver with 0 wins could win the chase!?!?!?!
thats messed up.....one of the qualifications for getting in the chase should be at least 1 win.
or...maybe they should just set the top 12 by money earned....because you have to win races to make the big bucks
Terry
SOH-CM-2016
Here are the true standings as of a couple weeks ago. I wish they would dump the chase.
2010 Sprint Cup Driver 'Classic' Points Standings:
[after Auto Club, race 30 of 36....the OLD way]:
rank, car#, driver, points, behind
1) #29-Kevin Harvick (x), 4459
2) #48-Jimmie Johnson (x), 4210, -249
3) #24-Jeff Gordon (x), 4180, -279
4) #18-Kyle Busch (x), 4131, -328
5) #11-Denny Hamlin (x), 4084, -375
6) #14-Tony Stewart (x), 4073, -386
7) #99-Carl Edwards (x), 4070, -389
8) #31-Jeff Burton (x), 3994, -465
9) #17-Matt Kenseth (x), 3933, -526
10) #2-Kurt Busch (x), 3923, -536
11) #1-Jamie McMurray 3786, -748
12) #16-Greg Biffle (x), 3785, -673
13) #33-Clint Bowyer (x), 3764, -674
14) #39-Ryan Newman, 3711, -695
15) #5-Mark Martin, 3632, -869
16) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya, 3590, -827
2010 Sprint Cup Driver 'Classic' Points Standings:
[after Auto Club, race 30 of 36....the OLD way]:
rank, car#, driver, points, behind
1) #29-Kevin Harvick (x), 4459
2) #48-Jimmie Johnson (x), 4210, -249
3) #24-Jeff Gordon (x), 4180, -279
4) #18-Kyle Busch (x), 4131, -328
5) #11-Denny Hamlin (x), 4084, -375
6) #14-Tony Stewart (x), 4073, -386
7) #99-Carl Edwards (x), 4070, -389
8) #31-Jeff Burton (x), 3994, -465
9) #17-Matt Kenseth (x), 3933, -526
10) #2-Kurt Busch (x), 3923, -536
11) #1-Jamie McMurray 3786, -748
12) #16-Greg Biffle (x), 3785, -673
13) #33-Clint Bowyer (x), 3764, -674
14) #39-Ryan Newman, 3711, -695
15) #5-Mark Martin, 3632, -869
16) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya, 3590, -827
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Still looks like the Vegas odds favorite (Johnson) will win the record setting 5th championship......
Hey All,
I like the chase. It is like the playoffs and championship - in other sports where you have to qualify to even be in the playoffs and have a chance at the title - why not NASCAR too? There have been way too many years - thinking back to Richard Petty especially - where the last half of the year is meaningless because of the points lead under the old system. A true champion performs under pressure - the chase system demands that. This is what I like the most about the chase system - a true champion "steps up" when it counts instead of resting on the laurels of a particularly "good run" of races. I think the chase is absolutely the best way to go.
That Harvick would have the lead today under the old system is completely meaningless and I have no idea why people calculate this. The underlying assumption is that the race results would be the same under either system. This assumption is utterly totally and completely BOGUS! Teams - especially Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus - would treat individual races differently if all races counted the same toward a championship than they do under the chase format. Jimmie and Chad use the first 26 races as preparation for the last 10 while making sure they are in the top 12. Who is to say that Jimmie and Chad wouldn't be leading in the total points under the old system if the old system were the one used today.
The whole point to the chase system is to make teams perform under pressure because that is the basic fundamental defining characteristic of a true champion - the ability to "step up" and perform when it matters. People who want teams to be able to "ride out" lucky hot streaks to championships are the ones who prefer the old system.
Nuff of that - some comments.
- A driver could win the championship with NO race wins under either - old or chase - system.
- That Jamie could win Daytona, Indianapolis and Charlotte and not make the chase is a testament to his teams inconsistency. Should this make him Championship material? Absolutely not under the current system.
- It was a good win for Jamie! Great race for second between Kyle and Jimmie! Kyle was just tight enough on the exit to 2 and 4 to accelerate away from Jimmie. Good Stuff! Also notice how clean they raced each other.
- I'm not happy with Denny! He needs to let his ego get the best of him and simply blow his chances at the Championship but he is not doing that! This basic change in character - if it is real and can be maintained - makes him a legitimate threat to other driver's chances at the championship. Caz the boy is showing some real character.
- Jimmie did one He!! of a job last night - from a spin and a 36th or so start on one of the restarts to a third is driving!
- I have to comment on the Nationwide. Really great win for Brad Keselowski as it probably pretty well seals (not guaranteed yet) his Nationwide Championship. A great win and hopefully Championship for a great talent and true sportsman.
- Mark Martin - ran a 100+ laps at Charlotte in Danica's car showing Danica different lines on the track and really trying to help her. Now I've never been a MM fan but this shows first class character. Maybe I'll forgive him the deliberate engine blow.
- I really look forward to seeing Danica's evolution as a NASCAR driver. I really believe that her propensity for taking care of her equipment coupled with more aggression which she will learn in NASCAR (since she has fenders and a bumper) will really turn her into a far more complete and capable driver in INDY or NASCAR. She has the ability to drive a car she just needs the smart and I mean smart attitude.
- Martinsville next week - this (and talledega a week later) will be I think defining races in this years championship. Jimmie has had tremendous success at Martinsville but lately it's a Denny track. Who will prevail? A championship could be decided here. Talledega is the joker in the deck since you can so easily be caught up in somebody else's stroo-up. The eventual champion will be the guy who escapes the "big one".
- Yes - driver against driver Jimmie has to be the favorite but I don't look at it that way. I think of it as Jimmie against the world. Who would bet against the world? Does Vegas even calculate this?
- As for Panther's comment on Chevy winning the championship - well DUH!!! - France = chevrolet - always has always will. Toyota will get learned on this one! I'm a Dodge guy and so I am bitterly reminded of the fact that France = Chevrolet. The hemi, the superbird, the Dodge engine of a few years ago all remind me that manufacturer innovation to dominate NASCAR is unacceptable to the France family as they want relatively equal cars and since most teams run Chevy Chevy will win the most often. This is extremely disappointing but despite this there is still a lot of good racing in NASCAR.
-Ed-
An edit: Poetic justice for what?
I like the chase. It is like the playoffs and championship - in other sports where you have to qualify to even be in the playoffs and have a chance at the title - why not NASCAR too? There have been way too many years - thinking back to Richard Petty especially - where the last half of the year is meaningless because of the points lead under the old system. A true champion performs under pressure - the chase system demands that. This is what I like the most about the chase system - a true champion "steps up" when it counts instead of resting on the laurels of a particularly "good run" of races. I think the chase is absolutely the best way to go.
That Harvick would have the lead today under the old system is completely meaningless and I have no idea why people calculate this. The underlying assumption is that the race results would be the same under either system. This assumption is utterly totally and completely BOGUS! Teams - especially Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus - would treat individual races differently if all races counted the same toward a championship than they do under the chase format. Jimmie and Chad use the first 26 races as preparation for the last 10 while making sure they are in the top 12. Who is to say that Jimmie and Chad wouldn't be leading in the total points under the old system if the old system were the one used today.
The whole point to the chase system is to make teams perform under pressure because that is the basic fundamental defining characteristic of a true champion - the ability to "step up" and perform when it matters. People who want teams to be able to "ride out" lucky hot streaks to championships are the ones who prefer the old system.
Nuff of that - some comments.
- A driver could win the championship with NO race wins under either - old or chase - system.
- That Jamie could win Daytona, Indianapolis and Charlotte and not make the chase is a testament to his teams inconsistency. Should this make him Championship material? Absolutely not under the current system.
- It was a good win for Jamie! Great race for second between Kyle and Jimmie! Kyle was just tight enough on the exit to 2 and 4 to accelerate away from Jimmie. Good Stuff! Also notice how clean they raced each other.
- I'm not happy with Denny! He needs to let his ego get the best of him and simply blow his chances at the Championship but he is not doing that! This basic change in character - if it is real and can be maintained - makes him a legitimate threat to other driver's chances at the championship. Caz the boy is showing some real character.
- Jimmie did one He!! of a job last night - from a spin and a 36th or so start on one of the restarts to a third is driving!
- I have to comment on the Nationwide. Really great win for Brad Keselowski as it probably pretty well seals (not guaranteed yet) his Nationwide Championship. A great win and hopefully Championship for a great talent and true sportsman.
- Mark Martin - ran a 100+ laps at Charlotte in Danica's car showing Danica different lines on the track and really trying to help her. Now I've never been a MM fan but this shows first class character. Maybe I'll forgive him the deliberate engine blow.
- I really look forward to seeing Danica's evolution as a NASCAR driver. I really believe that her propensity for taking care of her equipment coupled with more aggression which she will learn in NASCAR (since she has fenders and a bumper) will really turn her into a far more complete and capable driver in INDY or NASCAR. She has the ability to drive a car she just needs the smart and I mean smart attitude.
- Martinsville next week - this (and talledega a week later) will be I think defining races in this years championship. Jimmie has had tremendous success at Martinsville but lately it's a Denny track. Who will prevail? A championship could be decided here. Talledega is the joker in the deck since you can so easily be caught up in somebody else's stroo-up. The eventual champion will be the guy who escapes the "big one".
- Yes - driver against driver Jimmie has to be the favorite but I don't look at it that way. I think of it as Jimmie against the world. Who would bet against the world? Does Vegas even calculate this?
- As for Panther's comment on Chevy winning the championship - well DUH!!! - France = chevrolet - always has always will. Toyota will get learned on this one! I'm a Dodge guy and so I am bitterly reminded of the fact that France = Chevrolet. The hemi, the superbird, the Dodge engine of a few years ago all remind me that manufacturer innovation to dominate NASCAR is unacceptable to the France family as they want relatively equal cars and since most teams run Chevy Chevy will win the most often. This is extremely disappointing but despite this there is still a lot of good racing in NASCAR.
-Ed-
An edit: Poetic justice for what?
Terry
SOH-CM-2016
The whole point of the chase is to increase viewership and ticket sales!
Leading the points after 36 races is not a lucky hot streak, it is hard work and dedication.
The chase is pure socialism. Take from those that have earned what they have and give to those who have not.
Hey All,
I disagree.
Many do not understand what NASCAR fundamentally did. What NASCAR fundamentally did was to shorten the "regular season" racing which used to have a champion at the end from 36 races to 26 races deciding that the last 10 races are the playoffs and championship for the top 12 drivers. Since it does no harm to have the other 31 cars in the last 10 races they are in to race for race wins and not the title. So you fundamentally have to earn your way into the last 10 races to have a chance to win the Championship. There is absolutely unequivocally nothing socialist about it when you accept the fact that NASCAR basically shortened the regular season to 26 races to earn the opportunity to win the title in the last 10. The "regular season" is not 36 races any more it is 26. NASCAR has every right to do what they did and I think it a change for the better. Makes teams "sharpen up" and that is a good thing.
An edit: By the logic of the "old system" in NASCAR being best then why don't the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB etc not simply play till the last date and whoever has the most wins is the champion? No none of them do it - why? Is it about building interest and excitment and raising revenue? Well duh welcome to capitalism.
As far as socialism in America I always though this song nailed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMLgEnDGkG4&feature=related
-Ed-
I disagree.
Many do not understand what NASCAR fundamentally did. What NASCAR fundamentally did was to shorten the "regular season" racing which used to have a champion at the end from 36 races to 26 races deciding that the last 10 races are the playoffs and championship for the top 12 drivers. Since it does no harm to have the other 31 cars in the last 10 races they are in to race for race wins and not the title. So you fundamentally have to earn your way into the last 10 races to have a chance to win the Championship. There is absolutely unequivocally nothing socialist about it when you accept the fact that NASCAR basically shortened the regular season to 26 races to earn the opportunity to win the title in the last 10. The "regular season" is not 36 races any more it is 26. NASCAR has every right to do what they did and I think it a change for the better. Makes teams "sharpen up" and that is a good thing.
An edit: By the logic of the "old system" in NASCAR being best then why don't the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB etc not simply play till the last date and whoever has the most wins is the champion? No none of them do it - why? Is it about building interest and excitment and raising revenue? Well duh welcome to capitalism.
As far as socialism in America I always though this song nailed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMLgEnDGkG4&feature=related
-Ed-
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Just keeping you honest when you start talking about underdogs
That being said, it's interesting how many Dodge teams when over to Chevrolet over the last couple of years.
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Classic Joe Gibbs maturation process of a driver as he did with a young Tony Stewart.....
Have to agree with Terry on this. What, exactly, was broken with the old system that needed fixing? It wasn't an unfair system. Those with the most points won. So what was it? The answer is simple – TV ratings. NASCAR decided that the ratings were suffering because all too often by the end of 25-30 races, the championship was all but decided, due to huge point leads gathered by winning teams, and people were tuning out. How to fix it? Just erase everyone's points and start over with ten races to go! Brilliant! Yes, yes, they lined em up according to how many points they accumulated over the “pre-season”, to make those first 26 races mean something. The bottom line is that NASCAR would love to have seasons in which the championship is decided on the last lap of the last race, to get better TV ratings. The only thing that stops that from happening is winning teams who gather huge point leads and make the last race irrelevant to the championship outcome. The only way to fix that is to “fix” it by erasing the points differential close to the end of the season. But now, after five years, people are getting tired of seeing the 48 team win the championship every year, so “we have another problem, Houston”... Can't wait to see how this “problem” gets fixed...
Is is harder or easier to win championships with this chase system? Depends on who you ask. If you are leading the points when the chase starts, it's harder. If you're 200 points back, but in the the top 12, under the old system you were toast, but now, you have a chance, since your fatal points deficit has been erased...
Is is harder or easier to win championships with this chase system? Depends on who you ask. If you are leading the points when the chase starts, it's harder. If you're 200 points back, but in the the top 12, under the old system you were toast, but now, you have a chance, since your fatal points deficit has been erased...
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Good points PRB...
And nowadays, the margin of difference between NASCAR and IROC are extremely narrow at best - especially with the SPEC cars and Chase points system....
And nowadays, the margin of difference between NASCAR and IROC are extremely narrow at best - especially with the SPEC cars and Chase points system....
Hey All,
Yep Paul figured out exactly what was wrong with the old system and how to "fix" it. Better to have one race be irrelevant than 10 or more.
In the top level series the days of "run what ya brung" are dead - stone cold dead - never to be revived. In addition to insurance and track speed concerns the reason is simple - no manufacturer or big money team can be seen to have brought a "loser" to the track so no manufacturer can be allowed to be totally dominant. So the rules get more and more exact to keep things more equivalent - for example there are exact rules about where and what size pieces of metal can go under a NASCAR stock car so it's not just the upper body. The money and hence the risk involved is just too big. Manufacturers don't have the I'll try harder next year attitude they just cut their losses and take their stuff and go home. The financial bottom line and ability to pay bonuses is all that matters. It isn't just racing - no major sport is about the sport anymore it's all about the money - it's reality and there is nothing that can be done about it - if we get to see some good sport action along the way we're lucky.
That the 48 wins alot - why that's not a problem it's the way it should be!
-Ed-
Yep Paul figured out exactly what was wrong with the old system and how to "fix" it. Better to have one race be irrelevant than 10 or more.
In the top level series the days of "run what ya brung" are dead - stone cold dead - never to be revived. In addition to insurance and track speed concerns the reason is simple - no manufacturer or big money team can be seen to have brought a "loser" to the track so no manufacturer can be allowed to be totally dominant. So the rules get more and more exact to keep things more equivalent - for example there are exact rules about where and what size pieces of metal can go under a NASCAR stock car so it's not just the upper body. The money and hence the risk involved is just too big. Manufacturers don't have the I'll try harder next year attitude they just cut their losses and take their stuff and go home. The financial bottom line and ability to pay bonuses is all that matters. It isn't just racing - no major sport is about the sport anymore it's all about the money - it's reality and there is nothing that can be done about it - if we get to see some good sport action along the way we're lucky.
That the 48 wins alot - why that's not a problem it's the way it should be!
-Ed-
R
redriver6
Guest
judging by the massive amount of empty seats.......NASCAR still has some work to do.
i don't think i have ever seen any Charlotte race...especially a night race that sparcely populated.
i don't think i have ever seen any Charlotte race...especially a night race that sparcely populated.
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
This is one area where F1 is distinctly different than NASCAR....Manufacturers try EXTREMELY hard...& hence why F1 has a drivers & constructors championship....
Ferrari wasn't always dominant - Just as Alesi & Berger...Red Bull wasn't always extremely dominant...Ford/Cosoworth used to dominate, now they struggle to stay out of last place...
Terry
SOH-CM-2016
Here is one way to fix this chase business. A season consisting of 5 sections of 6 races each. Each one produces a section champion. Then there are 6 races (chase) for the section champs to win the cup. Each section champ starts the chase with points accumulated during the first 5 sections, (no reset). At least NASCAR won't be stealing points from those that have earned them and the fans will have 6 big events to watch or attend.