Martin P4M-1/-1Q Mercator

this4dave2

Members +
To all you folks that have shown an interest in having a Martin P4M-1 /-1Q Mercator for FS9.

I just wanted to let you know I have completed the majority of research and started to build the 3D model of the Martin P4M-1 /-1Q Mercator.

I hope to make it as good as I possibly can and to live up to the other models that myself and Mick Morrissey have partnered together to provided to SOH in the past.

I wish I could give you a date of completion but I can't. I work on it as time permits and taking my time so that it will meet with our usual quality.
As the construction progresses I will try to add threads from time to time to keep you up to date on my progress.

David Wooster
 
72002bt.jpg


Seem's to be a interesting plane
 
Hi David

This is great news. I have wanted a Mercator for a long time and looked into making one. I am slowly making a small single engined aircraft to learn the modelling trade. It seemed to me that the Mercator with its mixed power presents some challenges which I am sure can be overcome.
 
Looking forward to this first P4M effort anywhere in the flightsim community, as far as I know. You are breaking ground. Once again let me know if there is anything I can do for you within my limited capabilities.:salute:
 
It looks like a Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer and a Lockheed P-2 Neptune had a secret liason in a Navy shed and created a good looking kid :icon_lol:
 
Just happened by....

To all you folks that have shown an interest in having a Martin P4M-1 /-1Q Mercator for FS9.

I just wanted to let you know I have completed the majority of research and started to build the 3D model of the Martin P4M-1 /-1Q Mercator.

I hope to make it as good as I possibly can and to live up to the other models that myself and Mick Morrissey have partnered together to provided to SOH in the past.

I wish I could give you a date of completion but I can't. I work on it as time permits and taking my time so that it will meet with our usual quality.
As the construction progresses I will try to add threads from time to time to keep you up to date on my progress.

David Wooster

I surely hope you get this model going soon... I have tried to work on the existing model here at SOH... but to no avail... the midsection of the fuselage, the medial portion of the wings, the engines and elevators are not
mapped...

I have produced pretty decent paint job.... but obviously incomplete...
see below...

View attachment 68220View attachment 68221View attachment 68222View attachment 68223

Would love to do justice to this exotic bird with an adequate model
 
Have I missed something here? I've been happily flying David's Mercator for several weeks.

You haven't missed anything, Harry... If you have David's "Merc", you have the real deal, and to the best of my knowing, the most recent P4M for FS9.

Cheers -- BB686:USA-flag:
 
You got it!

Edit: I think Gaucho is talking about texture problems while trying to paint a Q variant.

No complaints about the handling or flying... it is just a pity that areas like the wheel wells, mid-wing, etc. etc. were not mapped at all...
and just a flat finish on those parts, when one sort of superdetails the paint... is disappointing...
Especially the midwings... and the engine nacelles... But since the author seems to be available... I wonder whether he could map those
areas... and then we'd have a real winner ... the model is really good... I am not a modeller... just an artist... so I don't know how hard
it is to map areas that show but have no texture... maybe it is too much to ask... after the good effort to do a model of such an exotic bird at all...
Ito's Fokker DXIII is another example... of what could be more than just a nice model... he put engine vent areas in the model (colored) and this
precludes detailing them at all... you just can't paint over them... The Dragon Rapide... same thing... has a spar built in that shows as a coarse
black line...that cannot be treated at all... to make the flying model seem both accurate and realistic.. to whatever extent one can do it... after
all... they are not photographic real... but there is room to improve... and make the experience of "simulating" more moving...
 
Something to consider - the P4M only ever wore three color schemes - overall Glossy Dark Sea Blue (with Flat Sea Blue anti-glare panel, to be strictly accurate) was the primary one. For a brief period a handful of P4M-1Qs wore overall flat Sea Blue, and another handful briefly wore overall flat black. When the type was retired, some six years after the navy changed to the Light Gull Gray and White scheme, the P4M fleet was still resplendent in overall Dark Sea Blue. During most of the period of the Dark Sea Blue livery, the wheel wells and other such spaces were also painted Dark Sea Blue. When the Navy adopted the gray and white livery the P4Ms, though they never acquired that scheme, did acquire that scheme's white wheel wells and gear. (Strange but true, and well-documented in photos.) David's Mercators represent this change by having Dark Sea Blue wheel wells and gear on the early P4M-1 and white wells and gear on the later P4M-1Q.

That makes it unlikely that anyone would want to paint the Mercator in any other color (like the gray one in the post above) unless one was attracted to what-if, fantasy paints. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they don't appeal to everyone.)

In either case, on the real planes, everything in the wells was sprayed with the appropriate color, so there seems no reason for a more complicated texture.

Well, I suppose one could draw in things like pipes and other bits of equipment, or add stains from fluid leaks (though Navy maintainers were pretty compulsive about cleaning up and fixing such leaks.) I guess that sort of detail might appeal to folks who like to go into spot mode while flying the plane, drop the gear and zoom in to peer into the wheel wells. I wonder if anyone actually does that? Unless a lot of folks do that, adding such detail to the wheel wells would just complicate the model and increase the load on the processor, possibly adversely affecting frame rates for those who don't have top end computers.

One might actually add those equipment items to the 3D model as well as the textures, but that would have an even worse effect on processor load.

When David and I were collaborating, we always avoided adding unnecessary details for that reason. We didn't even put in a complete VC - just the panel and items that a pilot would see while looking at the panel or outside, like the way real pilots spend pretty near all their flying time. Many of us have downloaded models that looked spectacularly detailed while sitting on the ramp, but that wreaked havoc on the scenery, or reduced the frame rate to slide show speeds in the air. David and I always tried to make sure that our models wouldn't ever do that, and I'll be surprised if David doesn't still feel that way. He seems to have followed the same pattern when he made the P4M.

Well, I didn't mean to ramble so - I just wanted to toss out a couple observations.
 
Given the state of the art...

Something to consider - the P4M only ever wore three color schemes - overall Glossy Dark Sea Blue (with Flat Sea Blue anti-glare panel, to be strictly accurate) was the primary one. For a brief period a handful of P4M-1Qs wore overall flat Sea Blue, and another handful briefly wore overall flat black. When the type was retired, some six years after the navy changed to the Light Gull Gray and White scheme, the P4M fleet was still resplendent in overall Dark Sea Blue. During most of the period of the Dark Sea Blue livery, the wheel wells and other such spaces were also painted Dark Sea Blue. When the Navy adopted the gray and white livery the P4Ms, though they never acquired that scheme, did acquire that scheme's white wheel wells and gear. (Strange but true, and well-documented in photos.) David's Mercators represent this change by having Dark Sea Blue wheel wells and gear on the early P4M-1 and white wells and gear on the later P4M-1Q.

That makes it unlikely that anyone would want to paint the Mercator in any other color (like the gray one in the post above) unless one was attracted to what-if, fantasy paints. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they don't appeal to everyone.)

In either case, on the real planes, everything in the wells was sprayed with the appropriate color, so there seems no reason for a more complicated texture.

Well, I suppose one could draw in things like pipes and other bits of equipment, or add stains from fluid leaks (though Navy maintainers were pretty compulsive about cleaning up and fixing such leaks.) I guess that sort of detail might appeal to folks who like to go into spot mode while flying the plane, drop the gear and zoom in to peer into the wheel wells. I wonder if anyone actually does that? Unless a lot of folks do that, adding such detail to the wheel wells would just complicate the model and increase the load on the processor, possibly adversely affecting frame rates for those who don't have top end computers.

One might actually add those equipment items to the 3D model as well as the textures, but that would have an even worse effect on processor load.

When David and I were collaborating, we always avoided adding unnecessary details for that reason. We didn't even put in a complete VC - just the panel and items that a pilot would see while looking at the panel or outside, like the way real pilots spend pretty near all their flying time. Many of us have downloaded models that looked spectacularly detailed while sitting on the ramp, but that wreaked havoc on the scenery, or reduced the frame rate to slide show speeds in the air. David and I always tried to make sure that our models wouldn't ever do that, and I'll be surprised if David doesn't still feel that way. He seems to have followed the same pattern when he made the P4M.

Well, I didn't mean to ramble so - I just wanted to toss out a couple observations.

I understand your point of view... but please... don't be DEFENSIVE about it...you should be proud of your "baby"
However, given the state of the art in processors nowadays... frame rates have become relatively irrelevant..
Detailing cannot be considered irrelevant though... it adds to the "looks" a whole lot... you can judge that by the exorbitantly high prices placed
on payware models... (i.e: people will pay for such things as accuracy in looks... I like to do work like that.. without the price tag and share it
with whomever wants my repaints) just mapping areas that can be worked on does not seem like such an extravagant and thoughtless request as
you make it seem to appear... Like I said... I think my criticism is CONSTRUCTIVE...not destructive...
Following your apparent logic... i.e: the lack of many color schemes... WHY DO the MODEL IN 3 OR 4 different schemes... all blue and one gray???
One would be sufficient... no? Yet, you included, I think, about 3 different models and paint schemes...
me thinks the lady doth protest too much... lol:wiggle:
:salute::pop4:
No offense meant in any of my comments... and if they are taken thusly... MY APOLOGIES...

By the way... the grey scheme IS NOT A WHAT IF... the aircraft was operated out of IWAKUNE MCAS in the early sixties... and I can document that...
I was in Viet Nam in 69 and visited Japan on R&R... and went to Atsugi and Iwakune... as well as Yokota, Sasebo, Yokohama, Yoksuka, etc.
(probably the only young Captain on R&R who skipped the bars and went to every base I could enter)
 
If anyone is considering "what if" schemes for this bird, one I would vote for is the multi-tone grey scheme used for the P2V-7s (I believe) in VietNam that were utilized for placement of ADSID sensors on the HCM trail:
View attachment 68292


:salute:
 
Not trying to sidetrack from the Mercator discussion but...
I've always wished somebody would do a Vietnam OP-2E or RB-69 version of the P-2, or one of the earlier versions with the nose turret. Earliest model that I know of is J.R. Lucariny's donationware P2V-5/SP-2E.
 
s... frame rates have become relatively irrelevant...

...you included, I think, about 3 different models and paint schemes...

... the grey scheme IS NOT A WHAT IF... the aircraft was operated out of IWAKUNE MCAS in the early sixties... and I can document that...

I don't know any simmer who thinks that frame rates are irrelevant! Sure, processing power makes it easier to keep frame rates high, but to say that frame rates are irrelevant is downright silly! No matter how powerful (or not) a computer is, frame rates are critical.

I didn't include three models or paint schemes. I didn't include any models or paint schemes. The model and its paints are David Wooster's, not mine. But I have checked out David's plane, and I've seen that all of his schemes and all of the markings he put on them are historically accurate. (I know because I have a copy of the same reference book he worked from.)

The last Mercator was retired in 1960 (look it up if you don't believe me) so no P4M was operated out of anywhere in the early 1960s. I suspect that the plane you're thinking of was a P2V Neptune. The P2V and P4M looked a little bit alike from a distance if you didn't look too closely.
 
A little clarification...

I don't know any simmer who thinks that frame rates are irrelevant! Sure, processing power makes it easier to keep frame rates high, but to say that frame rates are irrelevant is downright silly! No matter how powerful (or not) a computer is, frame rates are critical.

I didn't include three models or paint schemes. I didn't include any models or paint schemes. The model and its paints are David Wooster's, not mine. But I have checked out David's plane, and I've seen that all of his schemes and all of the markings he put on them are historically accurate. (I know because I have a copy of the same reference book he worked from.)

The last Mercator was retired in 1960 (look it up if you don't believe me) so no P4M was operated out of anywhere in the early 1960s. I suspect that the plane you're thinking of was a P2V Neptune. The P2V and P4M looked a little bit alike from a distance if you didn't look too closely.

Frame rates are not irrelevant at all, what I meant was that most up to date computers can handle models like the "Little Friends" Mustangs with ease...
so the frame rate argument for not mapping all the parts is indeed irrelevant... unless one runs some dynosaur computer that fails at the least data overload...
I think my statement was misunderstood... or perhaps I didn't fully explain... At Iwakune, I visited the OPS center and checked out historical stuff... photos, etc. at the OPS center
I DID NOT SEE A P4M... for they were retired in 1960!!! ...and I went to war in 1969... but did see photos of that grey color scheme...So I could not confuse it with with a Neptune
Perhaps, you were also confused when you said my rendition of a grey scheme was not accurate...
Furthermore... what I meant by mapping wheel wells, etc. WAS NOT that the modeller should put any detail on them (like you said, pipes, etc)... JUST HAVE THOSE AREAS THAT SHOW
in the model MAPPED... so some enterprising and interested painter can detail it...
Please, let's not engage in a urinary contest... :icon29: even after a few beers... I can barely reach the urinal nowadays...:blind:
 
Fair enough.

I can't hardly fault you if you mistook a Neptune for a Mercator. There's a bit of delicious irony there, because back in the day, the Navy went to a lot of trouble and expense to get people (primarily those who wore red stars on their uniforms) to mistake Mercators for Neptunes.

First, even though they'd already decided that the Neptune was going to be the next standard patrol plane, they equipped a VP squadron with Mercators and deployed it to the Med, just to get people used to seeing Mercators in patrol squadrons and make it easier to confuse them with Neptunes.

Then, both of the Mercator VQ squadrons frequently dressed their P4Ms in phony VP squadron markings so that they would be confused with Neptunes.

And even before they started using fake VP squadron markings, they abandoned the early flat Sea Blue livery with few or no markings (never flat black - I misremembered in my earlier post) and replaced it with glossy Sea Blue with full standard markings in order to make their P4Ms look more like P2Vs.

You can read all about it in the Ginter Books volume on the Mercator; here's the link to an on-line version of the book, that someone posted in the earlier Mercator thread:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78712872/N...P4M-1-Mercator

As with all of the Ginter books, most of the book is made up of the kind of detail that only an engineer or a modeler could appreciate, but the later chapters tell the story of the plane's operational history - very interesting stuff!

(I can't resist saying this, but honest to goodness, I did not post this just for the chance to say it - you won't find any gray Mercators in the book.)
 
Back
Top