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OT: Here's a story to make you go WOW!

Ken Stallings said:
Comparing human life in any stage to bacteria is frankly shocking.

To me, human life has considerably more meaning and relevancy no matter its stage of development.

Ken
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It's not shocking in the slightest. It's only shocking if you think there's any difference whatsoever between the two (which there isn't). There is a point when 'human life' is established - but that is for a different discussion (whether it be at first brain activity or first heartbeat etc).

You can't say that "human life has considerably more meaning and relevancy no matter it's stage of development" because they are exactly the same thing. There is no differentiation until after a significant period of time in the pregnancy. As I said previously, although it is vulgar, many men get rid of plenty of semen, and women get rid of the lining of the uterus monthly. These contain all of the DNA of the individual, and are cells which create life, so why the double standard?

Snuffy - I don't understand what you're asking in the first point. Do you mean at what stage does a collection of cells become a human?

As for the spelling of 'foetus,' 'foetus' and 'foetal' are both completely valid and acceptable, it's just a variation. Strictly speaking you could call me up on the use of the word entirely, because it refers to the child in a developed stage, not the early stages which I am obviously talking about.
 
seems to me we are going above and beyond
the original thread
who wants to be here tomorrow
to post?
H
 
Henry said:
seems to me we are going above and beyond
the original thread
who wants to be here tomorrow
to post?
H
Click to expand...

Henry we're having a perfectly respectful and amicable debate. Furthermore it is completely related to the topic - points that have been raised in this thread are fundamental to the problems which are afflicting the young girl and the other parties mentioned.

If you don't like a thread then of course you can close it, but please don't threaten us with bans for what is a well spirited and interesting discussion.
 
Skittles said:
It's not shocking in the slightest.
Click to expand...

No doubt not shocking for you. However, I submit very shocking and cold for not only myself but for many other people as well. When I entered into this thread, I endeavored to merely post my objective observations on the topic and avoid reply to other comments. But truly, your comparison was simply too shocking to ignore.

Human life is special and sacred and for my suits cannot be reduced to cold analysis. For me a scientific understanding simply increases the sacredness. It does not provide a basis for antiseptic comparisons. In short the way in which a human life develops does not pass a litmus test for meaning. The meaning is entirely within the human potential for special achievement and that potential starts immediately upon conception. I submit that this concept is at the heart of this family's decision to bring the child to birth and by doing so salvage something noble resulting from something so horribly criminal.

Ken
 
Ken Stallings said:
No doubt not shocking for you. However, I submit very shocking and cold for not only myself but for many other people as well. When I entered into this thread, I endeavored to merely post my objective observations on the topic and avoid reply to other comments. But truly, your comparison was simply too shocking to ignore.

Human life is special and sacred and for my suits cannot be reduced to cold analysis. For me a scientific understanding simply increases the sacredness. It does not provide a basis for antiseptic comparisons. In short the way in which a human life develops does not pass a litmus test for meaning. The meaning is entirely within the human potential for special achievement and that potential starts immediately upon conception.

Ken
Click to expand...

I agree completely that human life is special and sacred, and that it cannot be reduced to cold analysis. My point is that at what point are we talking about human life? In regards to your comments about scientific understanding not providing a basis for comparisons, in my opinion it does entirely.

Fundamentally this boils down to the age old 'abortion question' - at what point during a pregnancy does a life become independant. There are people such as yourself who view that moment as the moment of conception, and believe it or not there are people that believe a childs life is not valid until they are outside of the womb and breathing for themselves. It is a question that we are not going to solve with any level of discussion - people more knowledgable than us have debated the matter for decades.

In regards to your comment about my viewpoint being 'cold,' I find it equally cold that anyone who has an abortion is a murderer (which I know is not a point you raised but has been mentioned), and that this is an absolute fact.

Are we to say that if this girl had understandably decided that at 11 years old after a rape she didn't want a child and aborted the pregnancy at the early stages, she is a murderer?

Thanks for your thoughts. Obviously we must leave it here.

Edit: Apologies for the double quote at the start of this post. I've tried deleting it but it keeps coming back!
 
Agreed. We must agree to disagree. :engel016:

However, I do sincerely agree with your second point that the child and the mother have every inherent right to decide the fate of the unborn child in accordance with their best judgment of what's in everyone's interest in that family. On that, you are correct in my view.

Cheers,

Ken
 
Skittles said:
Henry we're having a perfectly respectful and amicable debate. Furthermore it is completely related to the topic - points that have been raised in this thread are fundamental to the problems which are afflicting the young girl and the other parties mentioned.

If you don't like a thread then of course you can close it, but please don't threaten us with bans for what is a well spirited and interesting discussion.
Click to expand...
you can disagree but where did the discussion about abortion start
must have gone adrift
in my opinion
political , religious
whatever beliefs
im not threatening just a comment
cross that line why dont ya
H
H
 
Skittles said:
... Snuffy - I don't understand what you're asking in the first point. Do you mean at what stage does a collection of cells become a human? ...
Click to expand...

Sorry didn't mean to ask such a difficult question.

Since H is puttin a stop or a throttle on this discussion I'll leave it go here ....

And with regard to the article ... I'm not making any judgements on nothing.
 
Henry said:
you can disagree but where did the discussion about abortion start
must have gone adrift
in my opinion
political , religious
whatever beliefs
im not threatening just a comment
cross that line why dont ya
H
H
Click to expand...

threads go adrift all the time here. up to this point the discussion has been entirely civil. there has been no religious or political elements discussed. with all due respect, i understand that you may feel uncomfortable with where the thread is going, but threatening to ban people is not constructive. surely you can come up with viable alternatives without resorting to threats?
 
I would be very surprised if the step-father proves to NOT be the father. The 11 yr old girl IS pregnant. Someone got her pregnant. Unless, she is covering for a boyfriend, brother, uncle, cousin, etc., none of whom are mentioned in the article, I don't think she would falsely blame the step-father.

I am going to assume that the police considered other possible suspects and ruled them out. I am also going to assume that an 11 yr old is not going to get herself pregnant just so she can frame the step-father, whom she may not like.

On another note:

Cheezy, I didn't read any threat to ban anyone in Henry's post. I saw a call to order. A call to return to the original theme of the thread. While you are correct in stating that threads often roam away from the original theme into other areas, the Staff are watching for threads that take a turn into the religious and political arenas. We are trying to keep threads from getting so far into the religious or political arena that we have to close them.

I would love to make a statement on the differences between human life and bio-masses. However, I will follow Henry's advise and refrain.
 
Although it is entirely possible (and even probable, since it's a common event in Mexico) that the step-father is guilty - we are all convicting him in advance, and even in Mexico's draconian justice system, they don't do that!

This event took place in the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, where I lived from 1995 to 2006. I will (through friends there) follow this so that I can report the results of the planned DNA test since it will have dropped off the American news media's radar by then.

Although I understand the point Ken and others made about this being the family's business - if this girl is lying, it should immediately become the state's business in order to protect the interests of the infant.
 
In all Third World countries girls help their mothers take care of younger siblings, but normally those siblings grow up and the girls are then free to make of themselves whatever their education and economic level allows. I'm sure this girl could care for her child (probably better than some parents here in the US) but that's a big permanent responsibility to put on an 11-year-old. In any case the decision to have an abortion or carry the child to term should be left to the family and not imposed by some government agency. The government's responsibility is to hold accountable the step-father or whoever is found responsible for molesting the girl.
Although this thread has stayed civil (surprising considering the subject), I still have to ask, why do people keep posting stuff here that is obviously likely to deteriorate into a locked thread and more bitching about forum censorship???
 
Skittles said:
Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Destroying these cells is no different to eradicating a bacteria. It doesn't matter in the slightest that these cells could go on to create life. Every month a woman flushes her uterus of plenty of cells that would develope into life. Every few hours a man ejects plenty of cells that would develop into life given the chance (ha). Life is 'created' in neither instance. It is already there. getting pregnant just mixes things around into a big mush of cells. There IS an instant in the pregnancy when a foetus gains 'life', by our definition of the term, but to kill the cells in the early stages of the pregnancy is no worse than using alcohol rub on your hands.

Foetal cells in their primitive state, which they are through long periods of the pregnancy, are no different to bacteria in any way shape or form.
Click to expand...
People like this make the world such a nice place to live.
 
Toastmaker said:
Although it is entirely possible (and even probable, since it's a common event in Mexico) that the step-father is guilty - we are all convicting him in advance, and even in Mexico's draconian justice system, they don't do that!

This event took place in the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, where I lived from 1995 to 2006. I will (through friends there) follow this so that I can report the results of the planned DNA test since it will have dropped off the American news media's radar by then.

Although I understand the point Ken and others made about this being the family's business - if this girl is lying, it should immediately become the state's business in order to protect the interests of the infant.
Click to expand...

I think it is unlikely the step father would be blamed if not guilty, but you are right in what you say. I would be happy if you keep an eye on this and let us know when critical events take place.

Cheers,

Ken
 
Skittles said:
Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, something like that.

On a sidenote, human beings are nothing but a bunch of growing, dividing and dying cells in various forms either.



As for the original issue: They're free to do whatever they want. Exchange opinions, work out a concensus and done.
 
Ken Stallings said:
I cannot see how anyone outside that family is the least qualified to enter into the situation. Especially to show up at their home with such enticement to pressure the child to do it their way smacks of arrogance run to an extreme level.

This is for the family to decide as they see best able.

The mother showed her concern by having the step father immediately arrested.

Perhaps the mother and the young daughter believe firmly that the only way this criminal action results in anything positive is by rearing the child. If that is their sincere decision, I feel myself completely unqualified to tell them they are wrong!

Ken
Click to expand...

This is one of those topics my Dad and I go round and round on, he is pro life and I am pro choice

Abortion or not, this is between the mother and the daughter, everyone else can go, well you know.

And if guilty the step dad should be shot!
 
Bjoern said:
Yeah, something like that.

On a sidenote, human beings are nothing but a bunch of growing, dividing and dying cells in various forms either.
Click to expand...

With sentience/advanced brain activity. It makes all the difference.

Oakfloor said:
People like this make the world such a nice place to live.
Click to expand...

Scientists?

Yes, we do thanks.
 
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