Dino's F35 on sale at SimMarket

[Lionheart]

Hey all,

I saw that SimMarket was having a sale on the new F35 by Dino. I noted it has the B version STOVL design in the mix (all three versions; A, B, C). Sold!


Tested it last night after work and fell in love with Dino and Rob's new VTOL hover system. Auto hover!!!!!! Blooooooooooooooooooooooody great! Worked flawlessly. I cant believe how fun it was to take off and land in VTOL mode.


If you get it; T (tailhook) turns on STOVL/VTOL mode. Shift/H or Control/H flips you between STOVL and VTOL modes. VTOL is pure vertical, while STOVL is forward motion semi-VTOL mode, for hopping into the sky with max payloads and fuel.

When in VTOL mode, pushing the stick forward brings you down (if hovering) and pulling the stick back (when in VTOL mode) will raise you off the ground (if you arent overweight with fuel. An auto VTOL cutout system keeps it from engaging if you are overweight for VTOL).


If you love jet fighters and futuristic concept jets, this is IT!!!!!



Bill

 

[rcbarend]

Hey all,

I saw that SimMarket was having a sale on the new F35 by Dino. I noted it has the B version STOVL design in the mix (all three versions; A, B, C). Sold!


Tested it last night after work and fell in love with Dino and Rob's new VTOL hover system. Auto hover!!!!!! Blooooooooooooooooooooooody great! Worked flawlessly. I cant believe how fun it was to take off and land in VTOL mode.


If you get it; T (tailhook) turns on STOVL/VTOL mode. Shift/H or Control/H flips you between STOVL and VTOL modes. VTOL is pure vertical, while STOVL is forward motion semi-VTOL mode, for hopping into the sky with max payloads and fuel.

When in VTOL mode, pushing the stick forward brings you down (if hovering) and pulling the stick back (when in VTOL mode) will raise you off the ground (if you arent overweight with fuel. An auto VTOL cutout system keeps it from engaging if you are overweight for VTOL).


If you love jet fighters and futuristic concept jets, this is IT!!!!!



Bill

Hi Bill,

Good to hear your enthousiasme
Especially from someone who knows all about aircraft addon design first-hand ....

Rob

 

[Lionheart]

Man Rob,

You have outdone yourself, man... I was more impressed then I showed. It is very easy to control this thing in hover, and from how it is talked about by pilots and in documentaries, its the same as the real thing; easy and straight forward and all managed by the onboard computer(s).

I was pretty impressed by how you also included side ways movement (like a Harrier) as well as forward, backward, and extremely realistic turning (pivoting) all while sitting there hovering.


I did approaches and checked out how the 'deceleration to hover' did and was also impressed by how gentle it was. I did plant it in the ground 2 times (very first, and once late in the night). The second time was not realizing I had the throttle at 10% when transitioning from hover to STOVL mode (forward acceleration and going into semi pure flight mode). She dropped out of the sky from maybe 15 feet and created a nicely made swimming pool in the ground.


I like also the controls and how simple it is, as well as the vibrating panel which occurs in some instances.


The engine graphics and animation, how it pivots and turns is beautiful and very detailed, especially the thrust nozzle sections that all work in harmony and the well done thrust flame in doughnuts (sonic rings) on full throttle moments.


That is also one sophisticated shape. It was well modeled. Must have been a ton of work.



Yep, you did well Rob. Very very very good. That is one nice job on the VTOL/STOVL. Lockheed Martin will be impressed.



Bill

 

[Lionheart]

Day off. Tonight, I did some pattern flights, touch and goes, and then playing around again with STOVL/VTOL.

I found you can put throttle to full and birp the STOVL mode a couple of times (when hovering) to high speed taxi in hover mode. Works nicely. You 'must' be at nearly full throttle though or you drop like a block of concrete filled with rocket fuel.

:S

EDIT: Further play in Hover and STOVL modes. With full power, you can get up to 70 plus/minus knots, tapping VTOL to slow back down. It seems to keep its alt. well, stable, like as though the system is keeping the angle held when zero joystick is being given input.

Its so cool to taxi up to a hanger, hovering the entire time, pull up, drop the landing gear, and gently touch down. Your tires will never wear out! Nice touch on moving sideways. Loving this bird!

 

[ryanbatc]

Wow the plane was cheap to begin with... this is a great deal!

 

[Lionheart]

Hey Ryan,

I think the sale has ended. This was last week.


I couldnt believe the price. A very good deal.



Bill

 

[Lionheart]

Dino,

I would like to make a humble request.

Is it possible to compile a B model without the rudders!?

Please... If possible, if you have time.

I was looking at this thing tonight, and it occurred to me, it looks a bit like that Canard rudderless jet fighter, but with rudders. This thing would look so cool without rudders.



Some excellent model work on that shape... Nice job.




Bill

 

[rcbarend]

Day off. Tonight, I did some pattern flights, touch and goes, and then playing around again with STOVL/VTOL.

I found you can put throttle to full and birp the STOVL mode a couple of times (when hovering) to high speed taxi in hover mode. Works nicely. You 'must' be at nearly full throttle though or you drop like a block of concrete filled with rocket fuel.

:S

EDIT: Further play in Hover and STOVL modes. With full power, you can get up to 70 plus/minus knots, tapping VTOL to slow back down. It seems to keep its alt. well, stable, like as though the system is keeping the angle held when zero joystick is being given input.

Its so cool to taxi up to a hanger, hovering the entire time, pull up, drop the landing gear, and gently touch down. Your tires will never wear out! Nice touch on moving sideways. Loving this bird!

Hi Bill,

Just a little correction
As it is now, in STOL mode, you need to give around 50% throttle to maintain 70/80 knots when flying leveled.
Below 70 knots, the F35B will sink because of strongly reduced winglift (see last point).

When Hover mode is active, throttle position makes no difference since it's flying on auto throttle/thrust; forward speed can be influenced with stickbuttons (in my FSX implementation: ailerons trimcommands, so that you can use standard FSX controls); elevator control doesn't influence pitch attitude (auto-controlled to remain leveled); elevator control just controls vertical speed.

Now, the exact control during STOL still is a bit guesswork.
I've seen videofootage/comments that suggest that also in STOL (non-Hover mode) the F35B is on autothrust, and you set airspeed with the throttle (so throttle position indirectly determines airspeed, and required actual thrust and nozzle/fan position is then calculated/set by FMC).
And a much lower possible airspeed (like 20 Knots) in non-Hover mode.
But unless someone with detailed, factual knowledge can describe me exactly how it works IRL, my educated guess is as good as anyone's
If/when that's fully cleared, I'll certainly make an update.

Cheers, Rob

 

[Lionheart]

Hi Bill,

Just a little correction
As it is now, in STOL mode, you need to give around 50% throttle to maintain 70/80 knots when flying leveled.
Below 70 knots, the F35B will sink because of strongly reduced winglift (see last point).

When Hover mode is active, throttle position makes no difference since it's flying on auto throttle/thrust; forward speed can be influenced with stickbuttons (in my FSX implementation: ailerons trimcommands, so that you can use standard FSX controls); elevator control doesn't influence pitch attitude (auto-controlled to remain leveled); elevator control just controls vertical speed.

Now, the exact control during STOL still is a bit guesswork.
I've seen videofootage/comments that suggest that also in STOL (non-Hover mode) the F35B is on autothrust, and you set airspeed with the throttle (so throttle position indirectly determines airspeed, and required actual thrust and nozzle/fan position is then calculated/set by FMC).
And a much lower possible airspeed (like 20 Knots) in non-Hover mode.
But unless someone with detailed, factual knowledge can describe me exactly how it works IRL, my educated guess is as good as anyone's
If/when that's fully cleared, I'll certainly make an update.

Cheers, Rob

Roger that Rob. I had to read through the manual to figure out how to run/manage the STOVL system and learned that it auto manages the vertical flight in VTOL-Hover mode. Wasnt sure on the STOVL on min throttle position. Thats awesome to know we can taxi in the air at 20 knots. She seems to hold attitude very well so no touching the joystick and she is solid in low altitude stability.


I know it would be a bit dumb to hover with the landing gear up, but man, it looks so cool to hover around with the gear up and only dropping them when you are about to touch down.

Fun jet.

 

[Sundog]

Hi Bill,

Just a little correction
As it is now, in STOL mode, you need to give around 50% throttle to maintain 70/80 knots when flying leveled.
Below 70 knots, the F35B will sink because of strongly reduced winglift (see last point).

When Hover mode is active, throttle position makes no difference since it's flying on auto throttle/thrust; forward speed can be influenced with stickbuttons (in my FSX implementation: ailerons trimcommands, so that you can use standard FSX controls); elevator control doesn't influence pitch attitude (auto-controlled to remain leveled); elevator control just controls vertical speed.

Now, the exact control during STOL still is a bit guesswork.
I've seen videofootage/comments that suggest that also in STOL (non-Hover mode) the F35B is on autothrust, and you set airspeed with the throttle (so throttle position indirectly determines airspeed, and required actual thrust and nozzle/fan position is then calculated/set by FMC).
And a much lower possible airspeed (like 20 Knots) in non-Hover mode.
But unless someone with detailed, factual knowledge can describe me exactly how it works IRL, my educated guess is as good as anyone's
If/when that's fully cleared, I'll certainly make an update.

Cheers, Rob

I saw a video on the STOVL mode for the F-35 by L-M. I'll try to find it, but IIRC, the way it worked, with the throttle at 50% (The middle position) the aircraft was neutral in altitude. If you pushed the throttle forward, you weren't controlling thrust directly but telling the aircraft you want to gain altitude (go up.) If you pulled back, you want to reduce altitude (go down). My guess is, like with the speed control for AP, the further away you are from the 50% position, the greater the rate change.

As for the stick, if you pushed it forward, the aircraft moved laterally forward. If you pulled it back, you moved laterally back. If you moved to the side it moved in that direction and the rudder pedals controlled the heading.

It's very similar to what you modeled. I'm definitely not nitpicking as I love what you did. It is so much fun to fly, I've probably been landing places you're not supposed to; the F-35B and Orbx PNW airfields (I'm practicing a lot of forward deployments ) are great fun.

 

[rcbarend]

I saw a video on the STOVL mode for the F-35 by L-M. I'll try to find it, but IIRC, the way it worked, with the throttle at 50% (The middle position) the aircraft was neutral in altitude. If you pushed the throttle forward, you weren't controlling thrust directly but telling the aircraft you want to gain altitude (go up.) If you pulled back, you want to reduce altitude (go down). My guess is, like with the speed control for AP, the further away you are from the 50% position, the greater the rate change.

As for the stick, if you pushed it forward, the aircraft moved laterally forward. If you pulled it back, you moved laterally back. If you moved to the side it moved in that direction and the rudder pedals controlled the heading.

It's very similar to what you modeled. I'm definitely not nitpicking as I love what you did. It is so much fun to fly, I've probably been landing places you're not supposed to; the F-35B and Orbx PNW airfields (I'm practicing a lot of forward deployments ) are great fun.

Hi,

Don't worry, I don't see your comment as nitpicking at all Because I'm willing to learn ....
I KNOW it's fun to fly (LoL, I'm biassed), but I'm very interrested in the video's you base your comment on.

But please realise, your description on what you observe is still ambiguous (sorry !!)
And is exactly the reason why (up to now) why I can't implement it more realistically now.

- You speak about "gain altitude (go up)" and "reduce altitude (go down)" commanded by throttle changes.
1. In what mode of operation is that ?
2. What do you mean by "gain altitude" ?
A. The aircraft gains altitude because it pitches up and therefore (with foreward airspeed) gains altitude ?
B. The aircraft gains altitude with constant pitch attitude ?


- What do you mean by "moving laterally forward" ?
"Laterally" means "sideways without changing heading and forward airspeed" as far as I know.
So I'm puzzled as to what you mean.


In fact, with what you describe, I don't understand why you state that "it's very simular to what I modelled".
The way I read it, what you describe is quite opposite of what I modelled.
In Hover mode, pushing the stick forward means that the F35B maintains it's current (forward) airspeed, heading and (0) pitch attitude, whilst loosing altitude. Both in real life and how I modelled it. (that's one of the things I AM convinced about ).
Hope you see my confusion.....


Best regards, Rob

 

[StormILM]

As for the stick, if you pushed it forward, the aircraft moved laterally forward. If you pulled it back, you moved laterally back

That's not correct. When in VL mode, the FCS automatically sets the plane in decel model at nose level. At that point the pitch axis on the stick no longer affects the pitch attitude of the plane. In VL mode the F-35B will climb vertically with back pressure and descend with forward pressure nearly identically to how Dino's F35B is modeled. As noted, the lateral/level side slip is controlled by left/right inputs on the stick and rudder pedals will control the yaw/nose heading.

Here is a video demo of the real LM F-35B simulator showing the STOVL mode operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnWg4v6iHk

 

[Lionheart]

I seem to recall that specifically in a video, that forward stick brought you down in hover mode, and back stick brought you up, and side stick make you move directly sideways. I believe that video was from LM.

 

[Sundog]

That's not correct. When in VL mode, the FCS automatically sets the plane in decel model at nose level. At that point the pitch axis on the stick no longer affects the pitch attitude of the plane. In VL mode the F-35B will climb vertically with back pressure and descend with forward pressure nearly identically to how Dino's F35B is modeled. As noted, the lateral/level side slip is controlled by left/right inputs on the stick and rudder pedals will control the yaw/nose heading.

Here is a video demo of the real LM F-35B simulator showing the STOVL mode operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnWg4v6iHk

Yeah, I think when I originally read it, I didn't read it carefully enough, because it went from throttle to stick in the same paragraph,

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkeras...etter030nvu/testflyingjointstrikefighter.html

But I notice they never really discuss how it moves forward or backward in the hover. They just note that it decelerates to a spot. Does this mean the F-35B pilot just designates a spot on the airfield to "hover" at? In which case the lateral movement (pilot input) would just be necessary for LHS ops since they usually hover next to it then move over to land since it is auto speed matched. You wouldn't need that capability at an airfield if you marked the spot where you want to land. I'm guessing they probably just move that spot electronically on the display to move it in hover if required?

 

[Sundog]

OK, I found out from people in the know. This what they said, which is just like the vid and the link show, but now I know how the throttle operates in hover mode as well.

In hover mode:

Forward-aft stick = vertical acceleration

Left-right stick = left-right translate.

Pedals = left-right rotate

Throttle = forward acceleration/deceleration. Mid-setting is speed hold. Idle setting - decelerate to hover or preset speed stop.

I think the deceleration in throttle forward is a typo. You push the throttle forward to accelerate and when at a forward speed you want to stay at you pull it back to the middle for speed hold, or keep it full forward to accelerate to STO mode. Pull it back to idle to enter a hover or a speed you set it at, which I'm guessing would be the speed to match landing on a moving ship. i.e., if the ship is moving at 20 knots you set it for 20 knots or if it's moving at 15 knots you set it at 15 knots.

Very cool.

 

[StormILM]

I concur on much of that. That LM video didn't clarify the forward speed control but other video sources indicate that the speed and modes are redundantly controllable from either the throttle or in the forward display. I would assume most of it is in a click-preset algorithm of some sort to minimize the workload on the pilot. All being noted, it's probably safe to say that the way Dino's F-35B is done is very accurate considering known limitations of FSX. It's simply amazing how stable the model is in the slow and vertical modes and the transitions are almost smooth as glass. I do not know if anyone has tried it yet but I tried to 'VIFF" the 35B while inverted which I thought would yield disastrous results. Instead, it actually righted itself from inverted to upright and was stable in STOL mode! I repeated this over and over but with generally the same results. Amazing bit of coding there!

BTW, if anyone questions the maneuver envelope accuracy, well, it's hard to say 100% but the latest info I heard out of the F-35 camp is that this thing has an instantaneous turn rate on par with just about everything currently flying and sustained turn rates better that the F-16 and F/A-18's(all variants). It's said to be fully controllable and 50* AoA which is pretty good. So I'd say it's on par or better than anything outside the TV side of the fence. Dino's F-35 sure seems to hit close to the mark if the above mentioned is correct.

 

[Ferry_vO]

Try hovering the F-35 in windy conditions and watch the aircraft compensate for shifts in wind speed.... Pretty amazing! Carrier landings have never been easier.

 

[rcbarend]

Hi All,

As the designer of the STOVL function in Dino's F35B (who else ...LoL), a lot of the info I based my design on, comes from a guy who actually had time in the LM demo simulator a few years back. And I implemented what he could remember, plus added some things I would expect myself in such a complex FBW flightmodel.

Like: as stated in one of the video's of the simulator by the LM instructor (forgot his name), in STOL mode the automation will prevent you from making "crashable" maneuvers. To me, that translates to "limiting pitch and bank attitude" ..
Like I also would expect that in Hover mode, the F35B has auto-windcompenstation. Which explains (comment by this same instructor) that when LM had Harrier or helicopter pilots in their simulator, they were rather "disappointed" because it was too easy ...LoL

What would happen in real life when you fly inverted and then activate STOL mode (if even possible) is pure speculation.
Only a test pilot (or reallife F35B designer) can tell, and as far as I can tell none of us here qualify
What happens now in Dino's FSX model, I admit, is pure coïncidental and not by design ....

One thing I AM pretty sure about, is how the pilot controls fore/aft speed when in Hover mode: not by using throttle, but by a up/down push button on the stick.
That said: if you activate Hover mode while tracking a moving carrier, the DECEL function doesn't decellerate to zero grondspeed, but to the carrier groundspeed; this is "artistic freedom", which is what I would expect from such an advanced aircraft.
But not based on factual info. Sorry

Anyway, I'm glad most of you like what I designed sofar.
No doubt when more (factual !!) info becomes available, I'll be the first to make an update.
As long as Dino doesn't mind, and it isn't limited by his current visual model.

If you read this post, you probably know that anything to do with VTOL/STOVL has become my main point of interrest in FSdesign over the years. And I am the first to make the required changes (when reasonable and relevant of course) if I have more factual info then I have now. Untill then, I'll stick to my own speculations, unless someone has good arguments to speculate otherwise

Anyway, I'm glad most of you seem to appreciate in general what I have cooked up for this F35B STOVL behavior (keeping FSX limitations in mind). How (un-)realistic it is in some aspects: your guess is as good as mine Time will tell.

Best regards,

Rob Barendregt

 

[Lionheart]

An awesome job, Rob!

I would like to do some VTOL models in the future and would love to work with you on your system being used in them.

That baby handles brilliant!



Bill

 

[Stickshaker]

I am the one Rob is referring to, and from what I remember from the LM cockpit demonstrator Rob did an excellent job indeed. If Dutch speakers amongst you are interested: I wrote an article about my sim trip for a Dutch aviation magazine and I can send you a pdf if you PM me and give me your e-mail address.