64 bit versions of Windows XP, Vista, and 7; older flightsim utilities, and MSFS

J

jhefner

Charter Member
64 bit versions of Windows XP, Vista, and 7; older flightsim utilities, and MSFS

This has been alluded to in at least two threads, but I wanted to put it out there in it's own thread at a high level:
ACM, Martin Wright's DXTbmp, MDLmat and MDLcolor, Ivan Hsu's MDLC with Morton's Windows interface, Panel Studio Pro were older programs that were developed for 16-bit windows, or Windows 3.x.



In regards to these or any program written for DOS or Windows 3.x (16-bit code):
  • 32 bit (x86) versions of XP, Vista, and it appears Windows 7 will run them just fine.
  • 64 bit (x64) versions of XP, Vista, and Windows will not.
The only solution for 64-bit Windows is to install a third party program such as VMWare Player that lets you run a 16-bit DOS environment under a 64 bit Windows operating system. You can then run your 16-bit programs (more in a second.)

That, in fact, is how Microsoft let you run 16-bit DOS and Windows 3.x programs on 32-bit Windows operating systems such as NT and later XP and others. They provided a program called the Virtual DOS Machine (NTVDM) that allowed them to run, and "thunked" their 16-bit Windows calls to 32-bit Windows. That is why when you pull up the task list, MDLC and other 16-bit programs appear indented under a seperate NTVDM task; the NTVDM task is the Windows NT Virtual DOS Machine.

When Microsoft released the x64 versions of Windows, they stated that you could not "thunk" from 16-bit DOS apps to 64-bit, and did not bundle in a copy of NTVDM. I think that is bunk*; and hope that someone will develop something similiar (like Wine for Unix) that lets you run Windows 3.x and DOS apps directly under 64-bit Windows. (They do have something similiar to NTVDM to let you run 32-bit apps under 64-bit Windows, "thunking" the calls to Windows in the same way.)

The problem with solutions like VMWare Player, DOSBox and others that emulate an operating system under 64-bit Windows is that you have to install a copy of Windows 3.1 to run Windows 3.x (16-bit) programs. If that is not correct, please let me know. NTVDM did not require a seperate copy of Windows 3.x because it "thunked" all the 16-bit Windows calls to 32-bit Windows.

Now, notice that I said that 64-bit versions of Windows also use an emulator to "thunk" 32-bit program calls to 64-bit Windows. What that means is that 32-bit programs, such all later versions of Microsoft Flight Simulator, do not run as 64-bit programs. So. just like when you used to run your older programs under XP, the difference in speed was only slightly better; most of the improvement comes from the fact that you are running Windows on faster hardware.

Hence, in regards to MS Flight Simulator, the only advantage 64-bit versions of Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 offer is access to more memory space. However, you cannot use any of the older tools that were originally written for DOS or Windows 3.x.

So, if you use any of the older tools, and/or all of your memory can be addressed by 32-bit versions of Windows; I suggest you purchase the 32-bit versions, and NOT the 64-bit. You will be losing more than you will be gaining. Otherwise, you will have to install an XP virtual machine (and the XP operating system) to run your older apps.
Questions? Comments?

-James

-Hope this helps;
James

*I have since learned that just as the CPU changed from real to extended mode when run 16 bit and 32-bit apps; the CPU changes to a different mode yet again when running 64-bit apps. This makes writing a 16-bit emulator for 64-bit Windows more complicated; and some newer CPUs may no longer support real mode addressing.
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jhefner said:
Questions? Comments?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was very please to see a new version of TCalcX be uploaded at FS Developer that works with XP64. Thanks to Rhumbaflappy for the revision.

Some other stuff I still would need to run on the box with 32bit XP.
 
I am not going to vouch for anything else on the list but Martin Wright's DXTbmp is working fine on my W7 64 bit laptop.

There are other solutions to run older programs that will not run under W7 32 or 64 bit. One is Windows XP mode virtual machine that is available in W7 professional and Ultimate.

The other is to run virtual Box by Sun. The issue with this option is you will need to create a virtual machine and install XP. This means you need to have a legally licensed version of XP which means buying another OS.

I run XP mode for a couple of different programs that I use for work. It does need a tweek to it to run 32 bit colors.

I use virtual box to run Ubuntu.
 
The answer: Windows XP Mode.

It's nothing but a virtual Windows XP running atop of Windows 7 (x86 or x64), but offers everything XP offered.
I'm using it for flashing my phone's firmware or converting MSFS flight plans.

Works without a hitch and is slightly mor comfortable to set up than with Virtual Box.
 
Obviously, DXTBmp was written in 32-bit code, and shouldn't have been listed. Sorry for the mixup.

Regarding the Windows XP mode virtual machine; does it require an XP license? Does it load an entire XP operating system, or just handle 16 and 32 calls like NTVDM did?

If solutions like DOSBox and virtual Box require you to load a seperate XP operating system in memory; that seems to defeat the only reason you would use 64-bit Windows, and that is to take advantage of addition memory 32-bit operating systems cannot address. You also have to purchase two lincenses; one for Windows 7, one for XP.

Like I mentioned early, MSFS is 32-bit code, and even Microsoft Office 2007 is 32-bit code. (Though Office 2010 will be offered in a 64-bit version.) The number of actual 64-bit applications (other than engineering and scienctific apps) is very small; so once again, 32-bit Windows 7 may still be the best bet if you have lots of legacy programs you need to use, like some of the MSFS utilities.

-James
 
So, I am running two separate physical HDs, not partitioned single HD.
One has XP 32bit, the other has Win7 64bit.

Is there a way to run the programs from Win7 HD looking back to the XP HD in order to take advantage of my RAM installed?
 
Silent Hunter 3 won't run on 64 bit computers, not sure about SH IV. Has anyone tried either with what's been mentioned. And no idea in what SHV will run on as I don't have it..... and won't until UBI gets their heads out of their butts.

I'm thinking of getting Win7 64 bit but not if I can't run any of the Silent Hunter series on it.
 
I think that part of the problem with running older code is where you install the program.

To get full use of your 64 bit system you have to install the program in the "Program Files (x86)" folder. Any thing installed outside of that folder will run as a 32 bit system. The difference is the drivers used for programs in that folder.

Earlier today I was troubleshooting a problem with Gimp on my system. Gimp ran fine but Gap would fail to load on start up. After many attempts to get it to load I simply backed up uninstalled Gimp and Gap. I then installed Gimp and Gap outside of the (x86) folder and it works now.

Of course now I don't have all the benefits of the 64 bit system and 6 GB of Ram. For my use of Gimp that is not much of a problem.
 
Dangerousdave26 said:
I think that part of the problem with running older code is where you install the program.

To get full use of your 64 bit system you have to install the program in the "Program Files (x86)" folder. Any thing installed outside of that folder will run as a 32 bit system. The difference is the drivers used for programs in that folder.
Click to expand...

That is very possible; some 32-bit programs and even some driver installs used 16-bit installers from InstallShield and others. The programs work fine, but the install programs do not work well or not at all.

-James
 
OK I'll try to answer a couple of things in this post,

In Windows 7 64 XP Mode is a COMPLETE version of Windows XP installed in it's own Virtual Machine, no seperate licence is required, it is part of the Win 7 OS and EULA, if you buy Ultimate the install files are included, if you purchase Home Premium it is a FREE download from MS. I have XP Mode installed on my system and it works great. I actually installed it for testing purposes and one old app that I had compatibility problems with but I have been playing with several other apps and games since and it does work well. I have also accessed data and apps from my regualr C: drive (that is my Win 7 Boot drive), it appears as a mapped Network share in My computer in XP Mode but it works. If you want to run Apps from the Win 7 Program Folder in XP Mode it takes some tweaking and in some cases a dummy install but it can be done, if anyone wants to try let me know I can write up a How To on the methods I used.

For Devildogs question about running apps installed on the XP 32 hard drive from a Win 7 boot (I presume here you are dual booting) that is something I have not tried, but I did try running apps installed on a Vista boot drive from Windows 7 64 booted from a seperate HD, it worked fine. The only thing to watch for is the primary drive letters switch depending on which OS you boot from, what I had was when I booted into Win 7 my system drive was C: and the Vista drive was labeled D:, however if I selected Vista in the Dual Boot menu the drive letters reversed, so I saw the Vista Drive as C: and the Windows 7 Drive as D:. I did have another seperate HD which was accessable from both versions of Windows and operated transparently to the running OS (I did install a small app on that which I could run from both versions of windows as well). I know all of the above seems like alot of work and I was probably nuts to even bother, but I was just plain curious to see if it could be done and it worked. The other thing is I also had Windows XP Mode installed and went so far as to access data and a couple of apps installed on the other drives from that, it was somewhat tricky but agian I just wanted to see if it would work and with some tweaking it did, the only catch was getting the various installs tweaked to run as fast as I would have liked but I did not spend much time on that as I knew I would not need to run them all on all three versions.

GT your question on SH3, SH4, I had both running fine on my old rig, but have not reinstalled on this one yet, as I recall the trick I used was to set the SH3 installer to run in Windows XP SP3 compatibility Mode before I started the install, that installed it properly in Win 7 64 and I did the same setting for compatibility Mode on the SH3 exe file. I am going to install both again on this rig and see if I have any problems, and if I do I will probably install them in the XP Mode Virtual Machine.

I recently built a new box and I am still setting up so I have not redone all of the above, but I still have lots of room to play, so if anyone needs help setting anything up let me know I can play around on this rig and possibly develop some methods to help get things going for you. I do love to mess around with stuff like this and I love a challenge.
 
GT182 said:
Silent Hunter 3 won't run on 64 bit computers, not sure about SH IV. Has anyone tried either with what's been mentioned. And no idea in what SHV will run on as I don't have it..... and won't until UBI gets their heads out of their butts.

I'm thinking of getting Win7 64 bit but not if I can't run any of the Silent Hunter series on it.
Click to expand...

I have both SH3 and SH4 running under windows 7 x64. The trick to it is to install outside of program files x86 folder or on another hd/d. Both games were installed using wins 7 RC build to a games only hd/d, and now running under wins 7 RTM by just creating shortcuts to both.
As for SHV being as its new it does run in x64, but i'm with you and won't get it for the same reason.:salute:

Joe

Joe
 
Ok... First, excellent subject. I have heard of developers losing alot of their programs, even Max, on their computers when upgrading (?) to 64 or 86. Great for gaming, but for developers, it seems not so good. Alot of our tools were made in the XP32 days.

But.... What I get in my emails from customers, are alot of people having issues with installers. My installers have Registry sniffers and still they have issues (with 'some' computers) finding FSX. Even on external drives, they can usually find FSX, but with Win764 and vista (cough) 64 - 86, they still have issues finding FSX... Then, if they do load up right, the textures will not load unless you reboot the computer, (on 64 and 86 computers, and again, not all of them, only a minority).


So, I can tell you that customers are also suffering in the downloads/installer area's on the many versions of windows....

'Windows, the OS with a thousand faces!!! '


(Just got through walking a poor soul through trying to get his plane to work in FSX. What a nightmare. Poor guy knows nothing about computers, has the newest Windows 64, all he wants to do is fly this plane he bought. I tried to refund him his money but he wants this going. We've been going for 2 weeks now. He just tried the CD version and that brought up the plane, but the gauges and textures arent showing... In Windows XP-32 and FS2004, THESE PROBLEMS NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )



Bill
 
Bill, if you are still having problems with this poor guy, give him my eMail addie, I'll be happy to check in with him and see if I can figure out where his problem is.
 
First of all, a billion, billion thank yous to gigabyte. I have a project that documented most of the world's remaining steam engines in the form of databases with Visual Basic 3.0 front ends. I have been working on it since the mid 1990s, but stopped when 64-bit operating systems and Windows 7 came out; thinking that the programs would no longer work on 64-bit Windows and Windows 7.

Gigabyte was kind enough to test for me, and verified that Windows 7 64 XP Mode runs the install and the various program features just fine. That breathes new life into the project; since I know it will now work on everything from Windows 3.x to Windows 7 64 XP Mode; except for some 64 bit versions of Windows XP and Vista, and some low end 64 bit versions of Windows 7.

Anyway, here is a screenshot of two of them and the help system running under Windows XP Professional 32-bit version. You may have to go to Webshots, and view the full size version, but the screenshot shows that all three 1b-bit programs appear indented under (actually above) NTVDM (The NT Virtual Device Manager) on both the Windows toolbar and in the task manager. Also, another program, wowexec.exe appears under NTVDM on the task bar. That is the Windows On Windows program, which "thunks" the 16-bit program calls to 32-bit Windows.



If gigabyte doesn't mind sharing a screenshot under Windows 7, I would like to see what it looks like. (You can share it with me via PM, and I will upload it to Webshots if you want.) Gigabyte mentioned the one caviate if the program you install is on CD is to make sure users connect their CD drives in XP mode as on some systems it does not automatically appear in the My Computer screen but most users who have gotten to the point of settign up a virtual machine should be well aware of this if it applies to them.

So, here is both an example of how 16-bit programs appear under Windows XP, and further proof that Windows 7 64 XP Mode will run those older MSFS utilities for those who have Windows 7 64-bit. Thanks again, gigabyte.

-James
 
jhefner, you are most welcome, as I said I love to "play" around with stuff like this and it was no trouble at all.

I was having problems getting the screen shot to lod on Flicker so here it is in all it's glory.

View attachment 6113
 
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