A Design Flaw In The ATR, Dehavilland Q400?

casey jones

Charter Member
I know nothing at all about being qualified to ask this question, as there are many here that are real pilots. I had read a book some years back called "Final Warning" the crash of a American Eagle ATR at Roselawn, Indianna. Its subject covered ice build up on the wings of this ATR, this commuter plane was not cerified or was it approved by the FAA for iceing conditions. I belive the author had brought up that there was a design flaw in the wings of the ATR and its ability to remain stable during ice buildup. The Dehavilland Bomberdier Q400 has a lists of groundings by various airlines but this was due to problems with the landing gear failing to lower.

Cheers

Casey
 
Q400 gear issues were determined to be related to maintenance... or lack of maintenance.
 
Its subject covered ice build up on the wings of this ATR, this commuter plane was not cerified or was it approved by the FAA for iceing conditions. I belive the author had brought up that there was a design flaw in the wings of the ATR and its ability to remain stable during ice buildup.

to play the evil guy here, if the plane wasnt ceritified to fly in iceing conditions, wouldnt the fact it crashed due to iceing be the pilots fault for not lowering his alt or picking a warmer day to fly on :engel016:
 
er,not quite correct Casey (and I am qualified to answer)
the ATR was certified to fly in icing conditions, in accordance with its' type certificate from build and design, however
after Roselawn extensive testing by NASA and ATR showed there was a potential for the area of the wings
immediately ahead of the flight controls (ailerons) to be susceptible to ice build up, not detectable from the cockpit if the aircraft encountered super-cooled large water droplets (now known as SLD icing) which then froze on contact (freezing rain)

The FAA didn't come out of the Roselawn enquiry smelling of roses either..... from

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19941031-1

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The loss of control, attributed to a sudden and unexpected aileron hinge moment reversal, that occurred after a ridge of ice accreted beyond the deice boots while the airplane was in a holding pattern during which it intermittently encountered supercooled cloud and drizzle/rain drops, the size and water content of which exceeded those described in the icing certification envelope. The airplane was susceptible to this loss of control, and the crew was unable to recover. Contributing to the accident were 1) the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation’s (DGAC’s) inadequate oversight of the ATR 42 and 72, and its failure to take the necessary corrective action to ensure continued airworthiness in icing conditions; 2) the DGAC’s failure to provide the FAA with timely airworthiness information developed from previous ATR incidents and accidents in icing conditions, 3) the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA’s) failure to ensure that aircraft icing certification requirements, operational requirements for flight into icing conditions, and FAA published aircraft icing information adequately accounted for the hazards that can result from flight in freezing rain, 4) the FAA’s inadequate oversight of the ATR 42 and 72 to ensure continued airworthiness in icing conditions; and 5) ATR’s inadequate response to the continued occurrence of ATR 42 icing/roll upsets which, in conjunction with information learned about aileron control difficulties during the certification and development of the ATR 42 and 72, should have prompted additional research, and the creation of updated airplane flight manuals, flightcrew operating manuals and training programs related to operation of the ATR 42 and 72 in such icing conditions. "
Several other aircraft types were also subsequently test flown to the same criteria, jets as well as turboprops,
some failed and some passed, resulting (in the USA and other countries) in some complete fleets being moved to fly routes where they would be less likely to encounter freezing rain.

However the lack of pilot awareness and FAA action continued....

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...BA1575BC0A96E958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

this freebie from NASA will enlighten you

----> http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html

and as Silver Fox correctly says, Q400 gear problems were lack of maintenance (mainly lubrication after cleaning)



ttfn

Pete

AMRaes, I Eng (Aeronautical Engineering), LAE
 
The safety report description of the last moments of the Eagle Air flight is the most chilling read...
I can remember a vitriolic article in the press stating that the ATR was the most unsafe aircraft ever made, and it was every citizen's duty to avoid getting on one.
In truth there were two (and a possible third near Casablanca) ice-related accidents for the type.
Interesting the accident report for the third initially blamed pilot suicide for the rapid descent and crash. This was later rescinded.
The worst ATR accident was when the entire Air Botswana fleet of three was destroyed by a disgruntled pilot. He proved the ATR could survive a loop (twice) before taking out the other two on the ground.

Pete, do you have a link to ice testing done on other types?
 
do you have a link to ice testing done on other types?


here's the basis outlined in FAR terms (EASA,TCA and others are similar), all aircraft that are certified and equipped to operate in known or forecast icing conditions do satisfy these requirements.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Icing_Certification

Actual results for the super-cooled large droplet (SLD) icing for specific types are,for the most part still deemed
'commercially sensitive', but I'll see what I can find, for the most part, some of the testing procedure involves flying behind this contraption

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2163/10du8.jpg

while water droplets of various size and density are sprayed out of it,
start at page 111 of this pdf --->

http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/actu_gd/secu3/givrage/pdf/DGAC_Icing_flight_manual.pdf

for a description of the testing required.

bear in mind,that as yet no aircraft of any type is certified to fly in SLD icing conditions (the investigation into SLD icing only began with the Roselawn crash)

hope this helps

ttfn

Pete
 
I can tell you from experience (working the ramp anyway) Boots do work. As long as the aircraft is flown the way it is supposed to be in icing.

When I worked for the charter company, our King Air's came back regularly in the winter with significant ice on unprotected areas of the aircraft. Most I'd ever seen was a two inch thick coating on the radome, Wing roots (no boots there on a C-90) and the spinners. The wings themselves were ice free on the leading edges but the fairing over the recognition/nav/strobe lights was completely covered.

From what I've been reading about the Colgan accident was that they were in ice on autopilot. which while not against the FAR's and the type certificate, was against company policy. the loss of control happened aparently from the reports when they extended the flaps and gear. the change in airflow then caused an upset that the autopilot couldn't handle.

Same thing with the ATR in Roselawn. The autopilot kept the plane flying fine until it couldn't. Then she flopped on her back.

I hate to say it. but this one looks like one of those chain of event types of accidents. one break in the chain and no accident.

My $0.02

Brian
 
A few days ago someone posted an FAA video on this forum which described tail-plane stall due to icing. After viewing it, I came away with the impression that it described exactly what occurred to the Colgan aircraft.
- H52
 
Thank you all for explaining this issue. I do re-call reading Mr Ernest K Gahnn's book "Fate Is The Hunter" where his description of ice buildup on the wings, engines, and winshield of the Douglas DC-2 was chilling to say the least...of course they were able to make...I think Buffalo as dawn broke..the ground crew had to chop big layers of ice off the wings..ect.

Cheers

Casey
 
Fate is the Hunter is an excellant book and I recommend it highly for anyone interested in 1930s - early 50s air transport.

Common wisdom among airlines and F.A.A. regulators is that pilots should not turn the system on until visible ice has developed, for fear of letting ice build up in a bulge on top of the inflated boots, in which case the boots would inflate and deflate within little ice pockets, without breaking the ice.
The safety board said that this belief was obsolete, because such an effect is not possible on modern aircraft.

In Fate is the Hunter, the DC-2 built up ice so quickly that the boots were inflating and deflating in those ice pockets rendering them ineffective.
 
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