AI headaches

H

hawkeye52

Charter Member
I went through the extensive list supplied to OBIO by Pekka, but I have not been able to resolve this matter, so here goes.

I am using K.Ito's P5M-2 Marlin as AI. It works fine, but I cannot get rid of the beaching gear. I have tried every combination of Gear_system_type and class but they will not go away. I have duplicated the settings found on AI PBY, B-314, Sandringham and G-21 with no luck. Can anyone help? [Please note that this is different from the flyable version about which I posted yesterday]

On a separate matter, I am also using the AI P2V-7 Neptune (Jaap de Baare, Tom Gibson, et al) but it could not get off a 5300' strip without going through scenery. I changed the max_rated_hp from 1700 to 3000 and that did the trick. Will the increased horsepower affect other aspects of the AI flightplan, eg cruise speed?

- H52
 
Sorry, can't help with beaching gear. If it is removed using a "special" key like tailhook, etc., then you probably cannot remove it.

The increased HP will affect the climb rate and speed. Cruise speed should be limited by the Reference Speeds section, if set correctly.

I would expect a fully loaded Neptune to take around 5300' for takeoff, I would think?
 
You can't remove it.

The beaching gear is landing gear, and AI planes always appear in the sim with their landing gear down. That's how AI works in FS and there's nothing you can do to change it.

(This is why you can't make an amphibian work properly as AI from a water start; the gear is down until the plane takes off.)
 
Thanks for the reply, Tom. I figured cruise would be based on the value in Ref. Speeds, at least that's what TT says. Since it is not one of the Connie Team's babies, I don't have to worry about blowing the engines.:icon_lol:

Don't know if they were fully loaded, but I used to see them get off in under 5000' on a regular basis, no sweat, in real life. But before I added hp, the AI consumed virtually the entire 11,000' at TJNR.
---------------------------------
The beaching gear is added or removed via the "G" key, exactly as tho' it were LG.

- H52
 
Hey Mick, thanks for the input. I'm interpreting your statement as they will always have their LG (beaching gear) "down" while in the water. I can live with that. However, AI land planes retract their LG after takeoff. But the beaching gear stays "down" throughout the entire flight. That is what I want to overcome. Any ideas?
- H52
 
hawkeye52 said:
Hey Mick, thanks for the input. I'm interpreting your statement as they will always have their LG (beaching gear) "down" while in the water. I can live with that. However, AI land planes retract their LG after takeoff. But the beaching gear stays "down" throughout the entire flight. That is what I want to overcome. Any ideas?
- H52
Click to expand...

Well, Ito-san's ReadMe says the beaching gear is "gear," and he tells us to use the "gear" as though it works like regular landing gear. So it should disappear once the plane gets into the air. Are you watching it long enough? It seems that if you watch it long enough as it climbs away, it should lose the gear.

When the plane's on the water, does it sit down on its hull the way it should, or does it stand on its wheels on top of the water surface as though it was on land? That's how I'd expect it to act if the beaching gear is in fact landing gear.

If I understand the model correctly, the only way I can think of to use it as AI would be to make an AI version of the plane by removing the wheel contact points from the aircraft.cfg file. That would make it sit down in the water properly. Then, if you object to it taking off with the beaching gear attached, just put in in flight plans where it only flies once a week, in the middle of the night, when you won't be there to see it. That way it would be there, floating at anchor, to decorate your seadrome, but wouldn't do anything that would look weird. If you don't mind the beaching gear, then you could use it like any other AI plane.

Or, since they just released it as freeware, you could use AlphaSims' PBM Mariner instead...
 
Mick said:
Well, Ito-san's ReadMe says the beaching gear is "gear," and he tells us to use the "gear" as though it works like regular landing gear. So it should disappear once the plane gets into the air. Are you watching it long enough? It seems that if you watch it long enough as it climbs away, it should lose the gear.
I watched one (flew behind it) for 15 minutes. Stayed down all the way
When the plane's on the water, does it sit down on its hull the way it should, or does it stand on its wheels on top of the water surface as though it was on land? That's how I'd expect it to act if the beaching gear is in fact landing gear.
It floats very naturally; the main beaching gear is just below the surface.

If I understand the model correctly, the only way I can think of to use it as AI would be to make an AI version of the plane by removing the wheel contact points from the aircraft.cfg file. That would make it sit down in the water properly. Then, if you object to it taking off with the beaching gear attached, just put in in flight plans where it only flies once a week, in the middle of the night, when you won't be there to see it. That way it would be there, floating at anchor, to decorate your seadrome, but wouldn't do anything that would look weird. If you don't mind the beaching gear, then you could use it like any other AI plane.
Click to expand...
I REM'd points 6,7,8 (LG) to no effect; the beaching gear stays attached.

In a little bit I will be posting a list of the combinations that have it floating, vs. sitting on it's wheels.
- h52
 
Well, then it's not normal landing gear if it doesn't disappear after take-off.

I guess it doesn't mean much if it floats with the gear in the water; amphibians work that way. I should've thought of that and realized that no contact point edits are required.

I don't know what to do about the gear, though. I suspect that nothing can be done.
 
The "boat" sits on its wheels (beaching gear) on the water's surface
Gear_system_type=0
Class=1
Class=3
Class=4

Gear_system_type=2
Class=1
Class=3
Class=4

Gear_system_type=3
Class=1
Class=3
Class=4

Gear_system_type=4
Class=1
Class=3
Class=4

The "boat" floats nicely, with beaching gear below the water's surface
Gear_system_type=0
Class=0 « only in this case, the aircraft vanishes.
Class=2

Gear_system_type=2
Class=0
Class=2

Gear_system_type=3
Class=0
Class=2

Gear_system_type=4
Class=0
Class=2

Hope this provides a clue to those who understand [contact_points]
-H52
 
Hi,

Note you may have to test this in AI mode, not as a user aircraft. It's sometimes different.

The classes for contact points are:

Integer defining the type of contact point: 0 = None, 1 = Wheel, 2 = Scrape, 3 = Skid, 4 = Float, 5 = Water Rudder

I don't use class 0 for any aircraft.

Hope this helps,
 
tgibson said:
Hi, Note you may have to test this in AI mode, not as a user aircraft. It's sometimes different.
Click to expand...
Tom, if by that you mean to simply observe what the AI a/c does, then yes, that is what I have been doing.

A few days ago I was accidentally flying the AI a/c and could not get rid of (i.e, "retract") the beaching gear. When I discovered my goof, I switched to the non-AI with the panel and the beaching gear responded to the "G" key. So today I re-instld the panel in the AI; I was sure that was the fix. Well, no luck; I followed one for 22 minutes and the gear stayed down.

Please ponder this: most AI land planes have no panels, so how does AI command "LG up" & "LG down" on land planes? If we discover the mechanism, we should be able to adapt it to Ito's Marlin.

Thanks for any help.
- H52
 
I just saw this comment in your earlier post about the Marlin. You wrote:

"Yes, the a/c I selected for my flying was the AI version, the very one from which I had stripped the panel and REM'd the landing gear contact points..."

I'll betcha dollars to donuts that this is the problem. Put the gear contact points back in, and the gear should "retract."

In the first post in this thread you asked if upping the horsepower on the AI Neptune would affect the flight plans in any way, and the answer is no. If you don't fix the arrival time in the flight plan, the plane will fly at the cruising speed indicated in the Reference Speeds section of the aircraft.cfg file. If you fix the arrival time, the plane will fly at whatever speed is required to get there on time.

BTW, that AI Nepture started out as a flyable plane in FS2002. Add a panel and sounds, edit the AIR file to make it show up on the Select Aircraft menu, and it'll become flyable again.
 
How sweet it is!

Mick, great minds think alike, but some think better than others. Last night I had the proverbial "light" go on and I remembered my accidental flight in the AI version, so this morning I placed the panel back into the AI and.....fell on my face (see above).

I was SO SURE THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

But I had overlooked un-remming the landing gear points, so my hat is off to you, Sir!

My thanks to all who contributed. I can now concentrate on my Spring yard work!

- H52
 
After I posted last night and shut down my computer it dawned on me that putting back the stock gear points would probably make the plane sit on its wheels on top of the water surface.

After you replace the gear points, edit the numbers that determine how far below the plane the wheels are. Start by making them match the corresponding numbers in the float points. That will get you close, and you may not have to tweak them any further.
 
Mick, no need to edit the gear contacts; the Big Blue Boat floats very nicely with the beaching gear just below the water's surface.

OK, we have fixed Ito's Marlin so that it extends the beaching gear to land, and retracts it after T.O. At least it no longer flies around with it sticking out. But then I got to thinking....

There are several AI amphibians (G-21 Goose, PBY Catalina, HU-16 Albatross) all of which operate from water without showing their wheels. If Ito's beaching gear is the Marlin's wheels, we should be able to have it operate without the extend/retract cycle, should we not?

- h52
 
hawkeye52 said:
There are several AI amphibians (G-21 Goose, PBY Catalina, HU-16 Albatross) all of which operate from water without showing their wheels. If Ito's beaching gear is the Marlin's wheels, we should be able to have it operate without the extend/retract cycle, should we not?
- h52
Click to expand...

I have an AI PBY that operates from water without lowering its wheels, but that's because someone got Mike Stone to make a special float AI model with the gear action disabled.


In my AI schemes the Goose and the Goat operate only from land because of the gear issue.


If you know of a G-21 and an HU-16 with the same modification as the float AI PBY, I'd sure like to know where to get copies!
 
Hi,

I know of no true amphibians that will work as AI as you describe. Bill Lyon's AI Goose comes in two flavors - one with retractable gear (that is used only for land airports) and one with no gear at all (the gear is modeled in the up position, but is not animated). This is used only for water airports.

Hope this helps,
 
Mick, Tom shed light on the G-21. I am using Lyon's Goose because it accepts Antilles Air Boats textures, however I had no idea it came in two flavors, as described by Tom. You can acquire that Goose via CalClassic's retro-AI; not sure, but I believe it's in the "Miscellaneous Aircraft" package. Of course, it may also be avail as a single item in the usual places.

Regarding the AI HU-16, I'll get back to you on that one. I have not used it myself, but I do have it D/L'd on a different PC from the one I'm on now.

___________________________________________________________________
Tom: "the gear is modeled in the up position, but is not animated"
Mick: "AI model with the gear action disabled"

Is this a matter of opening the Marlin MDL and disabling/de-animating the LG?
___________________________________________________________________

-h52

 
hawkeye52 said:
AI model with the gear action disabled"
Is this a matter of opening the Marlin MDL and disabling/de-animating the LG?
Click to expand...

Yes, but I think you'd have to have the source files and the modeling software it was made with in order to do that.

As we've seen, if we just disable the gear action in the aircraft.cfg file (by removing the appropriate contact points) the gear will always stay down. To make it stay up, the change has to be made in the model file.

Off I go to Cal Classics to search for that Goose. Thanks for the HU! Please let me know if you find that similarly-modified Goat!
 
False Alarm

Sorry, Mick. The HU-16 is also one of CalClassics' AI birds. I placed it into one of my flight plans for a quick check and whereas it floats nicely, it does so with the LG extended. Upon takeoff it retracts, then extends for landing. I apologize for giving you false hope. :banghead:

- h52
 
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