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The Staff of SOH
Air France Flight 447 is Lost.....
- Thread starter gera
- Start date
According to the first 'official news', it most probably crashed after it was hit by lightning. An automatic message was received from the aircraft, that it had a major short-circuit and didn't function correctly anymore.
I'm afraid an official cause will not help the passengers and crew anymore.
Huub
I'm afraid an official cause will not help the passengers and crew anymore.
Huub
Most crashes produce important info which in the long run make aviation safer, let´s hope the people aboard are all in God´s house and that we might learn what really happened. The lightning theory is not very convincing....lightning has been hitting planes forever and have not brought them down except in very rare cases.....
pieces are beginning to show up in some African coasts.........
Some data..........
" The Times UK reports that pilots have been unhappy with the A330's reliance on computers:
The French captain, age 58, joined the company in 1988 and became qualified to fly the Airbus A330 in February 2007. The two co-pilots, ages 37 and 32, joined the company in 1999 and 2004. Eight of the cabin crew were French and one was Brazilian.".....
Some data..........
" The Times UK reports that pilots have been unhappy with the A330's reliance on computers:
Investigators will want to know how the Air France aircraft, with an experienced crew, flew into the middle of a brutal storm that it could not handle. The Airbus flight system will be examined again; some pilots distrust the Airbus family's heavy reliance on computers (last October a Qantas A330 went into a 600ft dive over the Indian Ocean when the automatic pilot disconnected itself).
As far as updates go: Air France has released details about the flight crew.
The French captain, age 58, joined the company in 1988 and became qualified to fly the Airbus A330 in February 2007. The two co-pilots, ages 37 and 32, joined the company in 1999 and 2004. Eight of the cabin crew were French and one was Brazilian.".....
What a shame.
May their souls rest in peace.
My thoughts are that the airbus should have a backup 'manual' system, like a hole in the floor and a big bar that you put in that hole and that is a joystick of sorts that could manually (somehow) fly the plane. If you had a wind generator powering hydraulics (like the backup system on a 737, etc), and that powered a backup joystick in front of each pilot, they could at least fly the thing down to the ground instead of crashing. I think its crazy to rely on electrics to fly that many people. Crazy.... Always have a manual backup.
Bill
May their souls rest in peace.
My thoughts are that the airbus should have a backup 'manual' system, like a hole in the floor and a big bar that you put in that hole and that is a joystick of sorts that could manually (somehow) fly the plane. If you had a wind generator powering hydraulics (like the backup system on a 737, etc), and that powered a backup joystick in front of each pilot, they could at least fly the thing down to the ground instead of crashing. I think its crazy to rely on electrics to fly that many people. Crazy.... Always have a manual backup.
Bill
G
gajit
Guest
I agree with you Bill
cheezyflier
Charter Member
wouldn't have mattered anyhow. (in this case)
no way that a330 could pull off a hudson river landing in rough and stormy seas.
no way that a330 could pull off a hudson river landing in rough and stormy seas.
Actually, the A330 (and most other airliners) is equipped with a RAT for that exact situation. In the event of a complete loss of electrical power, the RAT automatically deploys and provides enough electrical power for basic flight instruments, and also produces enough hydraulic pressure to give the crew control of the aircraft.
In the event that an Airbus has a major failure of the FBW computers, the system reverts to what is known as "direct law" where the pilot's inputs go straight to the control surfaces without being processed by the computers.
If the FBW system completely fails (which has never happened as far as I know), Airbus aircraft can be flown "manually" (this requires hydraulic pressure) using the rudder pedals for roll and the elevator trim wheel for pitch.
Installing a completely manual backup for an aircraft that size is impossible, since moving any of the control surfaces requires the use of hydraulic actuators, and humans simply aren't strong enough to fly the aircraft without some kind of boosted controls.
Honestly, modern FBW systems are amazingly safe, and I'm guessing this will be one of those "one in a million" accidents where a set of circumstances arose that none of the designers could have forseen or planned for.
Wing_Z
Charter Member 2011
azflyboy, thank you for a very sane and reasonable post on this sad event.
I get quite despondent when I read all the "expert" opinions, totally unqualified and speculative, whenever something like this happens.
We are used to safe air travel, but Stuff happens which may be outside anyone's control.
Air accident investigators spend months working toward a resolution, sometimes without result.
It behoves everyone else just to hold back for a moment and give the souls aboard the necessary respect, is all.
I get quite despondent when I read all the "expert" opinions, totally unqualified and speculative, whenever something like this happens.
We are used to safe air travel, but Stuff happens which may be outside anyone's control.
Air accident investigators spend months working toward a resolution, sometimes without result.
It behoves everyone else just to hold back for a moment and give the souls aboard the necessary respect, is all.
deathfromafar
Charter Member
All true. Of a few guys I know who fly the Bus, they have trained for every conceivable emergency that has been thought of and a few that are outside the manual based on real incidents. The safety systems about the Bus's FBW/FCS are incredibly well thought out. There are a number of limiters in the pitch, roll, yaw axis inputs as well as auto throttle. A very forgiving nearly mistake proof system. As azflyboy noted, the amount of redundancy along with the manual reversion gives these aircraft a lot of leeway in case of multiple failures. The likelihood there was enough turbulence upset to cause the plane to suffer a departure and a hasty recovery overstressing the aircraft are highly unlikely. The FBW/FCS limiters won't allow that to happen while in the control law that is in effect during cruise flight. The airframe of the A330 can handle both the upset and the turbulence. Having flown in that part of the world a few times on Boeings and Buses, I can tell some stories about punching through some ugly weather! The ACARS transmissions indicate that whatever happend was very sudden with total electrical failure and rapid decompression. No MAY DAY, nothing beyond that final ACARS message. In other words, the aircraft broke up suddenly. An explosion would be my guess or a catastrophic structual failure. Question is, what was the source?
(Edit adding to this-)
Adding to my mention about the FBW/FCS control laws and safety limiters, the above quote is correct bearing in mind that the safety limiters will still likely be intact but all inputs will direct. Even if the safety limiters are offline, the direct control doesn't have enough authority to cause major PIO or overcontrol + overstressing the airframe.
wombat666
Administrator
Traces believed to be from the accident site have been found well out to sea off the coast of Brazil (I may stand corrected on that).
Waters in the area are some 4000 metres deep ....... and the flight recorders only emit signals for 30 days.
We may never know how or why but speculation is useless.
"It behoves everyone else just to hold back for a moment and give the souls aboard the necessary respect, is all."
Exactly my thoughts.
Waters in the area are some 4000 metres deep ....... and the flight recorders only emit signals for 30 days.
We may never know how or why but speculation is useless.
"It behoves everyone else just to hold back for a moment and give the souls aboard the necessary respect, is all."
Exactly my thoughts.
deathfromafar
Charter Member
The pingers in the boxes may or may not be detectable at the depths found in that area. Any recovery effort for the boxes will need the highest scope of DSR capability.
Educated guesses from the investigators may be all that ever comes of this. I saw the Chief Pilot of Air France speaking on TV last night and he clearly stated that whatever happened was an event far outside the norm and that was sudden & catastrophic. He went on to say that the press casting wild speculation about the weather being the possible sole factor isn't likely. He has flown that route many times through that weather. He said that at times it can be severe but not enough to bring down a plane like the Bus or Boeing.
Got a call from a friend in Sao Paolo last night giving a personal perspective from their end news. Heartwrenching stories.
May God rest their souls......
Check this...............
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524837,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524837,00.html
Ask the people in the Quantas flight....
Nature, usually takes a swap at human errors.-That´s Nature.