aircraft textures format

michaelvader

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Good morning friends,
on an airraft I recently worked by pure hazard I changed the existing skin textures (I am not sure in which format the was in original)
to DXT3 format - and I was estonished that the size reduced to nearly half the volume. When I tried the aircraft I also had the impression that the textures has been a little bit more clear..
Before I will try to do this with other aircraft my question:
1) can that be done with all aircraft?
2) will be there some disavantages to do so
3) are there some limitations or some things to take care ?
4 Can this procedure also be applicated tu scenery textures?
I am looking forward to the answers of the experts
Best regards
Michael Vader
 
Michael, some quick basics about DXT textures-
DXT3 is the "standard" format for FS9 textures. These textures are compressed, as you noticed, and can also contain a "separate" alpha channel to control things such as how "shiney" the texture appears.
DXT1 is, well, I really don't know why we use DXT1 textures. Mostly, I guess the idea is to use the alpha channel to make parts of the texture completely transparent. The best example of DXT1's are the patches on the pilot's uniform for Kirk Olsen's F-16 Vipers. I've had bad luck with DXT1's so I usually convert them to DXT3's. DXT5 textures are bad news for FS9. If you drop a plane that uses DXT5's into your main aircraft folder, FS9 will lock up when you try to start it. DXT5's are reserved for FSX and later titles, a DXT5 texture's alpha channels contains surface bumps and distortions (3D rivets). I have no experience with FSX and later, so I'm going by what I read.

Getting back to DXT3, since the texture (and the alpha channel) are compressed they tend to load faster in the game.
I know some of you re-painters swear by 32 bit textures (plus alpha channels) because they look so good (and they do), but 32 bit textures will eat into the frame rate a bit when you load the plane into FS. If you come from the "FSX generation" where 30-35 FPS is considered normal, 32 bit textures are no big deal. Some of us :loyal: believe that Life Begins At 60 (FPS) and we can see the difference between 32 bit and DXT3 in the form of frame stutters and over-all smoothness. :kilroy:

Using DXT3 for ground and scenery textures? Sure, they work just fine. :wiggle:

Can all aircraft (and scenery) use DXT textures? DXT3 is recognized by FS9 and FS2002 so there should be no issue. IMO, it also comes down to which program was used to compile the 3DO (model) but you would have to use a really old compiler to see any problems.

Are there any downsides to DXT's? The only one I can think of is if you wanted to re-paint a plane that used the old 256 color format , like .#af files.
I really had to think about this one. There are plenty of DXT .#af files out there.

Programs to convert (or change) DXT files-
There are only two I know about for repainting aircraft in FS2002 and FS9.

-Martin Wright's DXT2BMP converter. It was my go-to program (along with Paint Shop Pro) for many years. The only problem with DXT2BMP was if you tried to convert a DXT file to BMP then convert it back to DXT. DXT files had a bad habit of "blowing up", what I call the "mashed potatoes" effect. If you ever tried to use DXT2BMP on metallic (bare metal) textures, you know what I'm talking about. I thought this may have been due to not having enough RAM, but its a deeper problem. Back in the day, we all KNEW that you couldn't re-convert DXT's. That was just the way life was. Until.....

-FS Repaint. FSR was more of a curiosity when it first came out. You could see the entire plane while you drew stuff directly on the textures. That made FSR super-handy for figuring out which texture went where and which part of that texture covered a certain area on the plane. You could assign a paint program to work with FSR but it was really meant to work with MS Paint. :eek: Like I said, it was more of a curiosity. Several years ago, Windows did a major update to MS Paint and, WHOA NELLY, did that change the game. :wiggle: FSR is still a bit of a challenge to use. It isn't the ideal tool if you need to do pixel-by-pixel work but all you have to do is EXPORT a texture to see how FSR does it's thing. DXT textures still tend to distort slightly, but you really have to squint your eyes to find it. I still use an earlier version of FSR that Abacus sold as payware, but its still available for download as freeware. Just google "FS Repaint" and "download" and you should be able to find it. FSR will display any texture format it sees on an airplane, which makes it a little tricky if you want to convert DXT5 textures to DXT3 format, but its still the most painless way to go. If you're used to DXT2BMP, it can take a little effort to get in the groove with FSR.
 
Hallo Sbob.
thank you for your detailed answer.
So a lot of work in perspective - and a lot of disk space to save as I understood well
What is WHOA NELLY? is it a texture work tool? is it free?
In any case when I will change the textures at a first time I will save the original textures in a folder a part
and if all is well I can delete them
Thank you again
Best Regards
Michael
 
Bob, I'm not so sure about your comment that DXT textures load more quickly because they're compressed. My understanding (can't remember where I learned it because it was so many years ago) is the opposite - compressed textures load more slowly because FS has to decompress them before it displays them. This gives the advantage to uncompressed textures like 32-bit or 256 colors. I use 32-bit because 256 colors usually isn't enough to get the desired shades and tones, as well as not having an alpha channel, though they are often good for interior parts and sometimes for solid color exterior bits.

Back in the early days of FS9 compressed textures were used because they're smaller in size, and that mattered with the computers of those times. Now that we have terabyte drives and processors powerful enough to run a sim without a video card, texture size is no longer an issue.
My big objection to DXT textures is that they are so easily corrupted. Every time you work on a DXT texture it gets a little bit corrupted - even the first time when you make it from scratch! So there is no such thing as an uncorrupted DXT texture file.

You can see what I mean if you make a test texture with just some colored shapes against a colored background. You don't have to make it a texture for a model because you do this experiment just with the texture file itself in DXTbmp and your preferred image program. Make the shapes any shape except perfectly rectangular boxes. Circles and triangles are good test subjects. American national insignia are great for this. Make your test texture, save it and close it. Open it up again and take a close look at those stars and bars, and you'll see corruption in the form of jagged discolored edges where the color separations are. Use your bucket tool to change the color of some of the shapes you drew and see how the new color doesn't cleanly fill the shape. Yuck! And if you do any further work on the texture, the corruption gets worse every time you save your changes.

This is why I haven't released anything but 32-bit textures for many years, since I learned and saw how unstable they are.

You can see a terrible example of the result of repeated saves of DXT files if you happen to own a copy of the old Aeroplane Heaven Grumman F3F. Just look at any of the stock texture files and you'll see what I mean.

The only time I use DXT textures is when I make AI versions or static models of aircraft to populate an airport. To ease the demand on processor power from scads of static planes, I convert the 32-bit textures to DXT3. Since they'll never be opened and saved again the corruption is the least possible, and since they won't ever be looked at up close the corruption won't be really noticeable.

As for whether all this applies to scenery textures as well as aircraft, I don't know for sure but I don't see why not. But as with static models and AI planes, we usually see scenery items from a distance so we don't need the high resolution we'd prefer on a flyable plane.

As for the difference between DXT1 and DXT3, I'm not certain but isn't it that DXT1 doesn't have an alpha channel? I do know that the alpha channel controls either metallic shine or transparency, and which one it is depends on how the modeler made it for that model - it's not something the painter has control of.
 
You can find some detailed information here:


In general dtx1 - dtx5 are different compression rates and all handle the alpha channels in a different way. They were developed for the S3 video processors (Old people like us remember the first S3 video cards).

They are compressed to a uniform file size. So the quality loss depends on the complexity of the texture. For instance a 1024x1024 texture, without mipmaps, is always 1 Mb.

As Mick already said these files are compressed, so you save diskspace, but you require additional processing to decompress them to make the visible again. That's why they display slightly slower than uncompressed files (32bits)

.DDS is more or less the same compression system, however the texture is already flipped, due to which the video card needs less processing.

This is at least what I have been told about compressing textures.

Cheers,
Huub
 
Mick, point taken. :ernaehrung004:
My experience with DXT and 32 bit textures is that the 32-bits take longer to load. This probably comes down to my (fanless) GPU. :indecisiveness:
Think "RTXminus2" but its quiet. :p

One of the old wives' tales about DXT textures was that they could wrap around shapes better without blurring. This is some really old "convectional knowledge" from back when we didn't understand alpha channels.

DXT1's can have an alpha channel but that channel is a lot more "binary". Something is either visible or it isn't.

Editing a DXT texture and converting it to BMP (or JPEG) and back again will result in some loss. FS Repaint gets around this by "upsizing" the image you edit before it condenses it back down to the original size. I've re-re-re-converted DXTs with no real loss of data, unless you look really close.
 
Well, if you're OK with "unless you look really close..." I'm not, except as I said earlier for static models and AI planes that I don't ever expect to see up close. But don't forget that every time you work on it it gets more corrupted and pretty soon you don't have to look very close to see it. Also, I forgot to mention that you not only get the jaggies along the edges of color separation lines, but each time a DTX texture is saved it picks up a bit of a green cast. Again as an example, if you have the AH F3F, check out the textures and besides jagged color edges you'll see that all the silver parts have a green tint, and in some textures they look more green than silver.
 
Mick, do you have the IRIS F-14 Tomcat installed? I've got some FSX (DXT5) texture conversions you might want to check out in FS9. :wiggle:

Seeing is believing. :ernaehrung004:
 
Good morning friends,
oije oije oije, considering what I read, I bette do not convert my textures to DXT3 - LOL saves me a lot un senseless work
I only can repeat it - this site is mervellous!
So many helps and tips done by friends.
Thank to to the adminstrators to keep this site working
and thank you to all who participate to keep FS2004 alive
Best Regards
Michael
 
Mick, do you have the IRIS F-14 Tomcat installed? I've got some FSX (DXT5) texture conversions you might want to check out in FS9. :wiggle:

Seeing is believing. :ernaehrung004:
No, I don't have it. I don't buy payware because I never get to fly, so payware would be money down the drain. Also don't have FSX.

Re: your earlier post, 32-bit textures are big files and I would guess that if they load noticeably slowly, it probably has to do with the system they're running on. Things like processor power, video card RAM if there's an older processor that needs a video card, that sort of thing. Maybe even frame rate. I keep my frame rates much lower than yours, probably because my aging eyes see buttery smoothness where you might need more frames because you have sharper eyes. I know many folks run much higher frame rates than I do because they say it looks smoother to them, but increasing my rates doesn't make it any better for me since what I have needs no improvement to my eyes.
 
It has been many years since I have been active on this website, or any website for FS9 for that matter. FS9 is my preferred sim platform.Thank you guys for an informative thread, I downloaded the FSRepaint free trial version program today, however when I started opening up the program I got the message that I'm missing the "D3DX9_43.DLL" from my computers DirectX9. So it wouldn't launch.

I'll still keep poking around. My driving force in learning to repaint the WOP P-51D. One of my favorite P-51 Mustangs is one that my Dad raced in 1965 and 1966 at Reno, Fox Field, and Boulder City. I was using the DXT file program but have been crippled in my attempt to get curved lines on fuselage.

Is there anyone here that could offer any advice on repainting?

 
Good morning BellCobraIV,
here is the missing DLL,
It has to be put into your Windows\System 32 (I still use windows XP, on other Windows Operating Systems I doesn' t know)
Hope it helps you
I also use FSRepaint and it is a fine tool for me. But there some ac it does not accept.
Best Regards
Michael
 

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Good morning BellCobraIV,
here is the missing DLL,
It has to be put into your Windows\System 32 (I still use windows XP, on other Windows Operating Systems I doesn' t know)
Hope it helps you
I also use FSRepaint and it is a fine tool for me. But there some ac it does not accept.
Best Regards
Michael
Michael,

Thank You, I have included a work in progress picture and a picture of the Mustang with no numbers on it.

I do appreciate your help.
 

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  • P-51-N66111.jpg
    P-51-N66111.jpg
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Hi BellCobraIV,
that is the fine thing of this site, there will be nearly always some one who helps another one.
I can not count how many help I got here from friends.
With out them I believe to be no longer on flightsimming.
Painting is a long long way to learn and you never will stop to learn.
What I do as repaints is just basic. Experts as Huub - I never will reach him, a real artist.
Especially what I like on his repaints that his ac shows traces of use, they are not allways "factory new"
As repaint tool it self I use DXTBMP if I need to convert textures. and for painting the quiet old tool paintshop pro 6.
Some times also for some aircraft paints done for FSX can be converted to be used in FS2004. There again Huub is a real expert.
I wonder how he does.
So courage and patience to make your father Mustang fly again
Best regards
Michael
 
Hi BellCobraIV,
that is the fine thing of this site, there will be nearly always some one who helps another one.
I can not count how many help I got here from friends.
With out them I believe to be no longer on flightsimming.
Painting is a long long way to learn and you never will stop to learn.
What I do as repaints is just basic. Experts as Huub - I never will reach him, a real artist.
Especially what I like on his repaints that his ac shows traces of use, they are not allways "factory new"
As repaint tool it self I use DXTBMP if I need to convert textures. and for painting the quiet old tool paintshop pro 6.
Some times also for some aircraft paints done for FSX can be converted to be used in FS2004. There again Huub is a real expert.
I wonder how he does.
So courage and patience to make your father Mustang fly again
Best regards
Michael

"... have been crippled in my attempt to get curved lines on fuselage..."
That depends on what image program you're using with DXTbmp. By default it goes to MS Paint, since that's the one everybody has. I do a lot of work in Paint, though I prefer an old version hacked to look and act like the one that came with WinXP. Paint can make curved lines but it doesn't antialias them so if seen up close they have the jaggies. For anything that requires smooth curves (that would be pretty much any curved lines) I use PSP7 (any version of PSP would do, and I'm sure there are other programs that I'm not familiar with. When I paint an airplane I often switch back and forth between Paint and PSP7 as some things are easier in Paint while other things look better if done in PSP7.

Also note that higher resolution formats make everything look better. It can be impossible to get true colors in 256 color format. And be aware that DXT formats are very lossy - even the very first save usually shows visible corruption (jaggy color separation lines and a greenish cast) and the corruption gets worse with every save. I always work in 32-bit format and leave it that way for flyable planes. For AI and static models that won't be seen up close I sometimes convert to DXT3 after the final save, but even then there's visible loss and corruption if you look closely.
 
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Mick,
Thank you for your input, appreciate it very much. I have PhotoShop 5.0 on the computer. The MWGraphics DXT Package I have installed is 16/32 bit Texture Manipulator 4.00.97, That is what I have installed. Is there a later/better version?

michaelvader,
Thank you very much for the DLL file, That fixed the issue and I was able to get it working in the demo mode.
 
No, I don't have it. I don't buy payware because I never get to fly, so payware would be money down the drain. Also don't have FSX.

Re: your earlier post, 32-bit textures are big files and I would guess that if they load noticeably slowly, it probably has to do with the system they're running on. Things like processor power, video card RAM if there's an older processor that needs a video card, that sort of thing. Maybe even frame rate. I keep my frame rates much lower than yours, probably because my aging eyes see buttery smoothness where you might need more frames because you have sharper eyes. I know many folks run much higher frame rates than I do because they say it looks smoother to them, but increasing my rates doesn't make it any better for me since what I have needs no improvement to my eyes.

The IRIS Tomcat for fs9 has been free for some time now, should be able to locate it at Simviation.com

Ttfn

Pete
 
Mick,
Thank you for your input, appreciate it very much. I have PhotoShop 5.0 on the computer. The MWGraphics DXT Package I have installed is 16/32 bit Texture Manipulator 4.00.97, That is what I have installed. Is there a later/better version?
I suspect that there are newer versions of everything I've got. I've been using what I have since I got started painting planes back around the time FS2004 first came out. But newer isn't necessarily better. For example, good old MS Paint was a basic, somewhat crude but easy to use and very useful program, but a couple Windows versions ago they "improved" is and made it bloated, clunky and user unfriendly. So I continue to use a version hacked to run in WinXP mode that I call OldPaint. In a similar vein, I use Paint Shop Pro 7 for a lot of things that are above Paint's ability. Some years ago I was given PSP10 and I hated it. It was bloated, clunky and seemed to make it harder to do things not as well. So I stuck with PSP7 and didn't even bother to install PSP10 on my current rig. (Which runs Win10 hacked to look and feel and mostly work like Win7.)

Pete's got a point about 32-bit files being big. Whether that matters depends on your system. Back in the day, two or three computers ago, I remember that 32-bit textures sometimes loaded slowly, and lots of planes with lots of 32-bit skins would threaten to fill up a hard drive. Now, with a modern processor so strong it doesn't even need a video card, and with terabyte drives, all my gazillions of aircraft loaded with 32-bit skins only fill a small fraction of the drives they live on, and those 32-bit textures load instantly. If you (or someone) has an older rig without today's processing power and without drives with enormous capacity, it might be worthwhile to convert 32-bit skins to DXT3 format. There is a little program called Texture Converter BMP to DXT that will do that for all the textures in a skin at once in a batch with just a few clicks and file movements. There is also a Texture Converter FS9 to FSX (or maybe the other way round) so you need the right one! If you can't find it let me know and I'll send you a copy of mine.
 
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