Altitude Effects on Mixture Balance

B

Bletchley

Guest
Hello All,

Having fun with Phase 3, flying a campaign with the Bristol Scout in May 1915 :)

I have noticed, though, having also flown the Alb.D.III and Alb.D.V in Quick Combat, that there appears to be a marked change in the altitude effects on the fuel/air mixture balance (a marked change since Phase 2).

Both the Alb. types, with inline stationary engines, were effected at a much lower altitude than before. I noticed a significant effect from 3000-4000 ft in Phase 3, but it was correctly set at about 5,000-6000 ft in Phase 2 (the carburettors of this period were either slightly less than the stoichiometric or were slightly lean for take off at full throttle, which offset the altitude effects to this height).

The Bristol Scout on the other hand, with a rotary engine, appears to be largely unaffected until it gets to 5,000-6,000 ft. But a rotary engine of this period should be effected from as low as 3000-4000 ft, as it starts from a slightly over-rich base-line, set by the pilot, for full power at ground level and fully open throttle. This is, therefore, the complete opposite of what I would expect.

Is there a global setting for altitude effects on the fuel/air mixture that could be tweaked back to Phase 2 levels, or is this something that is set individually for each a/c by the flight model?

Sorry if this sounds like nitpicking - I realise this probably won't bother that many people, as most seem to fly with mixture control set to automatic in the workshop settings, but it bothers me in much the same way that wholly incorrect markings or incorrect a/c modelling details would bother others. This is not an issue about questionable performance (one reference source citing one set of figures, another citing something very different) as I know that many of these a/c did not have the manual mixture control for altitude that is currently necessary in OFF, and the effects of altitude on normally aspirated piston engines without mixture controls is well documented. So, having to use the manual mixture control, or set them to 'automatic', does bother me in a rather aspergic sort of way :)

Would it be possible for someone on the OFF team to look at this, and then if the OFF team agrees that it is so, correct it for a future patch, perhaps after the more urgent details have been dealt with?

Bletchley
 
Bletchley, engines were revised for many a/c due to changes in engine performance given by the tool we use, and other issues with AI handling the low power craft. We can look at but I cannot promise anything as this could affect other things.
 
Thanks for the reply Polovski - I guess it would be rather complicated then to change it, so not to worry. I can live with it as it is, just using the auto mixture setting for the types that had no manual mixture control :)

I have had two "snow" days here, which has been a good excuse to get lots of flying time in, and I am very impressed with the changes to the campaign.

Bletchley :wave:
 
Updated list of those a/c with manual mixture control, for P3:

YES = Manual Mixture Control; NO = Automatic (workshop setting)

Allied

Airco DH2: YES
Bristol F2b: YES
Bristol Scout: NO [to Jan. 1916] YES [from Feb. 1916]
RAF FE2b: NO
Nieuport 11: YES
Nieuport 16: YES
Nieuport 17: YES
RAF BE2c: NO
RAF RE8: NO [to Aug. 1917] YES [from Sep. 1917]
SE5a: YES
Sopwith Strutter: YES
Sopwith Camel: YES
Sopwith Pup: YES
Sopwith Triplane: YES
SPAD VII: YES
SPAD XIII: YES

German

Albatros D.II: NO
Albatros D.III: NO
Albatros D.V: NO
Albatros D.Va: NO
Albatros D.Va 200: NO
DFW C.V: NO
Fokker Dr.1: YES
Fokker D.VII: NO
Fokker E.III: YES
Halberstadt D.II: NO
Hannover C.III: NO
Pfalz D.IIIa: NO
Roland C.II: NO

Bletchley
 
Good info Bletchley.

For engines with no mixture control, should we not have to pick a setting at takeoff (like half way between full lean and full rich) and then leave it there for the flight? Auto mixture seems like a cheat if the computer is adjusting mixture for you on a plane that had no mixture control. Thoughts or ideas??
 
77Scout,

Lots of thoughts and ideas, but none of them workable in OFF at the moment (see my posts above, and on the P2 forum) - this is just a less than happy compromise that gives you (the pilot) mixture control for the a/c that had it, and no mixture control (i.e. automatic) for those that didn't.

It appears that altitude effects on mixture is modeled for each individual a/c independently in OFF, as part of the flight model (or at least, this is what I understand from Polovski's reply above), rather than as a single environmental variable that could be tweaked up or down. Using 'manual' mixture setting, and then accepting the default mixture setting for full power at ground level, might work for some a/c in OFF (I havn't tried them all), but doesn't work for any of those that I have tried so far - it is difficult to get above 10,000 ft without adjusting mixture for the Alb. D.III/D.V, for example, wheras in P2 I could get up to 14000-15,000 ft without touching mixture control. Leaning the mixture before takeoff will, I think, give you a lot less power at low altitude (and further research indicates that only the Benz Bz IV engine and the 'overcompressed' engines were historically leaned for fully open throttle at take off in this way). But I will do some tests on a/c in QC, with only very slightly leaned mixture for take-off, and report back on the altitude effects.

Bletchley
 
77Scout,

Yes, that worked well.....at least for the Alb.D.III :)

Immediately after takeoff I leaned the mixture until it suddenly dropped, and then enriched it by one 'tap' to bring the power back up to almost 100% (but a slight drop in rpm from 1300 to 1280, so not quite 100%). I then climbed to 15,000 ft without touching the mixture control, which is a quite respectable height for this a/c I think. The last 3000 ft took me 30 mins, as long as the first 12,000 ft, but that is as it should be. The rpm were down to 1220 by then, but I could have probably climbed another 500-1000 ft if I had the time and the patience (this would have taken me at least another 30 mins, at a guess).

I will test with some more a/c, and report back...

Bletchley
 
Thanks Bletchley. Sounds good. I will be interested to hear what you discover.

I printed out you list above and will use it in my future campaigns.
 
Latest workaround for correct mixture control

This is the latest workaround for those who want 'historical' mixture control. I have tested all the a/c in Quick Combat, with flights to altitude, to make sure that it works. But if you adopt this approach to mixture control in OFF, you will find that in some a/c types - those marked 'NO' or 'NO (lean)' - you will be at a slight disadvantage to the AI pilots at higher altitudes (as they will not be restricted in the same way to not 'leaning' the air/fuel mixture as you are), and you may also fall behind your flight leader in a climb (for the same reason).

Those marked 'NO (lean)' should now be 'leaned' immediately after take-off by reducing mixture (Ctrl -) until there is a significant drop in rpm - just one click on (ctrl =) to enrich should then send rpm back up to within 20-40 rpm of full rpm for most engines. This should then be the default for the rest of the mission, and no further changes to the mixture should be made - the a/c should be able to get up to 'historical' operational altitudes (or within about 10%, which I think is 'good enough'), at the expense of a very slight reduction in power at low altitude. There is some evidence that at least some (though possibly not all) German a/c carburettors were adjusted this way to give improved altitude performance. 'YES/AUT'. is the setting for the 'overcompressed' German engines - it gives the player the choice of either adjusting for altitude manually, or letting the sim. do it for you (the mixture control for altitude was integrated into the throttle control, in all of these engines, and although this did require some manual input on the part of the pilot it did not require a separate mixture control).

I havn't tried flying this way in missions or campaign yet, so not 100% sure it will be workable :jump:

YES = Manual Mixture Control; YES/AUT. = Manual Mixture Control; or set to 'Automatic' in Workshop; NO = No mixture control (accept the default at take-off); NO (lean) = 'lean' to reduce rpm by approx. 20-40 immediately after take-off, and use this as the new default setting, just as for 'NO'

Allied

Airco DH2: YES
Bristol F2b: YES
Bristol Scout: NO [80 hp Gnome to Jan. 1916] YES [80 hp Le Rhone from Feb. 1916]
RAF FE2b: NO
Nieuport 11: YES
Nieuport 16: YES
Nieuport 17: YES
RAF BE2c: NO
RAF RE8: NO [to Aug. 1917] YES [from Sep. 1917]
SE5a: YES
Sopwith Strutter: YES
Sopwith Camel: YES
Sopwith Pup: YES
Sopwith Triplane: YES
SPAD VII: YES
SPAD XIII: YES

German

Albatros D.II: NO (lean)
Albatros D.III: NO (lean)
Albatros D.V: NO (lean)
Albatros D.Va: NO (lean)
Albatros D.Va 200: YES/AUT.
DFW C.V: NO (lean) [1916/17] YES/AUT. [1918]
Fokker Dr.1: YES
Fokker D.VII: YES/AUT.
Fokker E.III: YES
Halberstadt D.II: NO (lean)
Hannover C.III: NO (lean)
Pfalz D.IIIa: NO (lean)
Roland C.II: NO (lean)

Bletchley
 
This is the latest workaround for those who want 'historical' mixture control. I have tested all the a/c in Quick Combat, with flights to altitude, to make sure that it works. But if you adopt this approach to mixture control in OFF, you will find that in some a/c types - those marked 'NO' or 'NO (lean)' - you will be at a slight disadvantage to the AI pilots at higher altitudes (as they will not be restricted in the same way to not 'leaning' the air/fuel mixture as you are), and you may also fall behind your flight leader in a climb (for the same reason).

Those marked 'NO (lean)' should now be 'leaned' immediately after take-off by reducing mixture (Ctrl -) until there is a significant drop in rpm - just one click on (ctrl =) to enrich should then send rpm back up to within 20-40 rpm of full rpm for most engines. This should then be the default for the rest of the mission, and no further changes to the mixture should be made - the a/c should be able to get up to 'historical' operational altitudes (or within about 10%, which I think is 'good enough'), at the expense of a very slight reduction in power at low altitude. There is some evidence that at least some (though possibly not all) German a/c carburettors were adjusted this way to give improved altitude performance. 'YES/AUT'. is the setting for the 'overcompressed' German engines - it gives the player the choice of either adjusting for altitude manually, or letting the sim. do it for you (the mixture control for altitude was integrated into the throttle control, in all of these engines, and although this did require some manual input on the part of the pilot it did not require a separate mixture control).

I havn't tried flying this way in missions or campaign yet, so not 100% sure it will be workable :jump:

YES = Manual Mixture Control; YES/AUT. = Manual Mixture Control; or set to 'Automatic' in Workshop; NO = No mixture control (accept the default at take-off); NO (lean) = 'lean' to reduce rpm by approx. 20-40 immediately after take-off, and use this as the new default setting, just as for 'NO'

Allied

Airco DH2: YES
Bristol F2b: YES
Bristol Scout: NO [80 hp Gnome to Jan. 1916] YES [80 hp Le Rhone from Feb. 1916]
RAF FE2b: NO
Nieuport 11: YES
Nieuport 16: YES
Nieuport 17: YES
RAF BE2c: NO
RAF RE8: NO [to Aug. 1917] YES [from Sep. 1917]
SE5a: YES
Sopwith Strutter: YES
Sopwith Camel: YES
Sopwith Pup: YES
Sopwith Triplane: YES
SPAD VII: YES
SPAD XIII: YES

German

Albatros D.II: NO (lean)
Albatros D.III: NO (lean)
Albatros D.V: NO (lean)
Albatros D.Va: NO (lean)
Albatros D.Va 200: YES/AUT.
DFW C.V: NO (lean) [1916/17] YES/AUT. [1918]
Fokker Dr.1: YES
Fokker D.VII: YES/AUT.
Fokker E.III: YES
Halberstadt D.II: NO (lean)
Hannover C.III: NO (lean)
Pfalz D.IIIa: NO (lean)
Roland C.II: NO (lean)

Bletchley

Thanks Bletchley - In P3 now Quick Combat is the same as Missions and Campaign so this can be applied to all play modes.

Basically we are not using CFS3 QC any more but it can be accessed via the workshops.

Ta

WM
 
Thanks Bletchley. I will give this a try in my campaigns.

Appreciate all your effort!!
 
Hello Bletchley,
thanks a lot - with the Albatros in Phase 2 this is exactly what i did - start the engine (full mixture), then full throttle, cut mixture completely, and quickly add 10 strikes so the engine will not die - the rest can be flown without ever touching the throttle again up to max. ceiling.
I do this fo not hammering away on the keyboard the 70+ strokes to lean the mixture ;-)
However i saw in P2 that the Dr.I never has more than, say, 1200 rpms, not sure whether this is the original maximum revolution. And the flying behaviour is a bit strange, it wants to rise all the time, even with neutral stick, maybe built-in hydrogen tanks :engel016:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish
 
I forgot to mention that, although I tested all in Quick Combat (Free Flight), the FE2b, as Siggi pointed out in another thread, will not get you to it's historical operational altitude at the moment even with a 'leaned' mixture (I believe the devs. will be looking at it when they get the time). The same is possibly true for the BE2c also (it climbed for me so slowly, even with the mixture 'leaned', that I gave up before I got anywhere near it's notional 10,000 ft operational ceiling).

Otherwise, I found the climb to altitude for nearly all a/c to be very close to the historical data that I have, plus or minus a few minutes or the odd 1000 ft. This is excellent really, considering that the times to altitude could vary by about five minutes or so between Summer and Winter. Operational altitude, often a couple of thousand feet below the absolute ceiling, could also vary due to changes in temperature and pressure, and this is generally a much better guide to the realistic ceiling of an a/c than the a/c absolute ceiling (which was often calculated, instead of flight tested, and was also sometimes wildly optimistic).

Catfish, I don't have much information on the Oberursel U2, but all German rotary engines were rated at 1200 rpm (and all the stationary engines at 1400 rpm). I believe it was very similar to the 110 hp Le Rhone, which had a max rpm for continued running at 1250 rpm and a max rpm 'for a few minutes only' of around 1300/1350 rpm, so 1200 rpm sounds about right. I don't know much about the Dr.1's flight characteristics either, but many WWI scouts were rigged tail-heavy so I would guess that this is probably correct also.

Bletchley
 
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