close in air refueling

P

PhantomP

Charter Member
Hi I just recently wanted to try to refuel in air again, I have an air refueling gauge that works on Alt,Speed,and pitch,and when you manuver your jet to those numbers it adds fuel.Now I have watched tons of refueling videos on youtube,and my question is are they using some type of autopilot to get so close,and stay remained very closely to the refueler,and if so could somebody recommend some gauges, or ,tools or ,even some tips on how to do this.I get so close but yet so far.Thanks
Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF4GE_7zIrI&feature=related:salute:
 
Better do it by hand! It is all a matter of staying in formation.
Once you are stable enough in formation slid into position, but make sure you don't overreact with your controls. When in position but further behind use a 1 to 2 kts approach speed and "crawl" into position. Once there use a visual reference point on the tanker and make sure that reference point remains the same during the refueling process.

Cheers.
 
Thanks hae5904, I keep trying but it's hard to get the plane to crawl,maybe one of these days I'll get it.:salute:
 
As far as I know there is no AP for refueling, real or simulated. It just takes practice.
Different fuel transfer systems allow for more or less variation in the positioning of the aircraft. The flexible hose types for example can take care of comparatively large deflection between the two aircraft without disconnecting.
The draw back of course is that there is no control over the fuel hose at all. It trails out and it's up to the receiving aircraft entirely to connect.

The fueling booms are less forgiving of course allowing only a few feet of room to play. But they are steerable by the boom controller and so once the receiving aircraft is in the slot it's pilot "simply" concentrates on keeping the guide lights lined up. The boom is "flown" in by the controller and connected.

One key to making this work both in the sim as in the real world is matching the speeds of the aircraft. Before the advent of the jet refuelers that meant the piston powered 97 would dive to pick up enough speed to be comfortable for the early jet bombers.
:ernae:

Stefa
 
PhantomP said:
Thanks hae5904, I keep trying but it's hard to get the plane to crawl,maybe one of these days I'll get it.:salute:
Click to expand...

That all depends on what kind of airplane you use. Sure, there are a lot of differences between certain planes. As an example, I'd been using the alphasim EE lightning and these are very responsive on the controls, including the thrust and airbrake control making them very stable and comfortable planes for flight refueling in FS9. On the other hand, flying the Mirage F1 you actually need to think ahead....a slightly to much thrust for to long and you'll overspeed....slightly putting the brakes out and it's like as if you hit a wall.

Crawling could be better done when you match the tanker speed, slightly increase thrust but decrease the thrust immediately back to where you started the crawling (ie...the moment you matched the tanker speed).

Hopefully these tips might be of use to you. Practice makes perfect. :icon_lol:

Cheers,
Hank
 
PhantomP, you are attempting the most difficult manoeuvre possible in FS9 (or RW for that matter).

I think there is an issue with how frequently the sim updates position, that makes this even more difficult if not downright impossible to fly. You can edge up to the tanker, but maintaining station is not something I have done to my satisfaction.

In making the clip you link to, (and also the other one with the single F1) I cut in formation clips made with Recorder Module offsets, for the hookup!
No way could I fly those sequences by hand...

The gauge you speak of sounds interesting - Rob Barendregt made some noises a long time ago about just such a thing - where'd you get yours?
 
Arrestor Cables 2.6 does fuel transfers. Just Flight's refueling system sounds like what PhantomP is using.

It does take patience though. I have only been able to refuel using the Just Flight system once or twice with the default settings. Theirs uses the full proceedure.
 
Rob did do a refuel gauge, it was a little different to that described above as it did almost work as an AP. Actually it was more like his helo hover gauges and it worked on IIRC a slew kind of principle, on the sly in the sim. I beta tested this and came to conclusions that had already been reached by Rob. Whilst, in principle, it worked fine, there were to many external variables at work for this to be anything but 'a hell of a support needed nightmare' not withstanding the requirement of a payware gauge. I still have it and use it regularly, I love it, but I know the limitations and accept them, as you all know, not everyone can.

Jamie
 
Sunny9850 said:
As far as I know there is no AP for refueling, real or simulated. It just takes practice.
Different fuel transfer systems allow for more or less variation in the positioning of the aircraft. The flexible hose types for example can take care of comparatively large deflection between the two aircraft without disconnecting.
The draw back of course is that there is no control over the fuel hose at all. It trails out and it's up to the receiving aircraft entirely to connect.

The fueling booms are less forgiving of course allowing only a few feet of room to play. But they are steerable by the boom controller and so once the receiving aircraft is in the slot it's pilot "simply" concentrates on keeping the guide lights lined up. The boom is "flown" in by the controller and connected.

One key to making this work both in the sim as in the real world is matching the speeds of the aircraft. Before the advent of the jet refuelers that meant the piston powered 97 would dive to pick up enough speed to be comfortable for the early jet bombers.
:ernae:

Stefa
Click to expand...
And it's really fun to watch from inside the KC!

Something not everyone knows is that those two little fins may have no effect on trying to move a bomber around, but the boom operator can literaly fly a small fighter around from inside the KC!
 
Wing_Z said:
PhantomP, you are attempting the most difficult manoeuvre possible in FS9 (or RW for that matter).

I think there is an issue with how frequently the sim updates position, that makes this even more difficult if not downright impossible to fly. You can edge up to the tanker, but maintaining station is not something I have done to my satisfaction.

In making the clip you link to, (and also the other one with the single F1) I cut in formation clips made with Recorder Module offsets, for the hookup!
No way could I fly those sequences by hand...

The gauge you speak of sounds interesting - Rob Barendregt made some noises a long time ago about just such a thing - where'd you get yours?
Click to expand...

You raise a very good point....FPS or lack of really high ones will make or break that kind of precision flying. Think of flying your favorite airplane you always make squeakers with and then fly that same airplane into a high density airport. Chances are that the landing will be a little bit harder.

In the real world I was for a while flying chase airplanes on UAVs for the developer. Some of those flights needed to be in close formation in order to get good aerial shots or visually checking a failed stores release.
And of course it also made a boring 4 hour sortie a bit more fun to hold formation as if you're in the slot behind a tanker.

One of the airplanes used for chasing was a rather sloppy rigged 206 and the other a quite nice 210. Holding formation with the 210 was relatively easy. The 206 was quite hard work.

Cheers
Stefan
 
JDTinballs said:
Rob did do a refuel gauge, it was a little different to that described above as it did almost work as an AP. Actually it was more like his helo hover gauges and it worked on IIRC a slew kind of principle, on the sly in the sim. I beta tested this and came to conclusions that had already been reached by Rob. Whilst, in principle, it worked fine, there were to many external variables at work for this to be anything but 'a hell of a support needed nightmare' not withstanding the requirement of a payware gauge. I still have it and use it regularly, I love it, but I know the limitations and accept them, as you all know, not everyone can.

Jamie
Click to expand...
Hi Jamie,

Triggered on this subject by a PM from Wing_Z (Charl), I just read this thread.
And I couldn't have formulated the conclusion better then you did ...:salute: But then again, English is only my 2nd language ...:icon_lol:

For me, these limitations on the stuff I need to work out this idea further, made me decide to shift my design interrest elsewhere.
But if you want to help Charl with the stuff I sent you: feel free to do so; as I replyed to Charl.

It was a nice idea, and I'm glad to hear these "limitations" are not a showstopper for you to still use it.

Best regards, Rob
 
rcbarend said:
Hi Jamie,

Triggered on this subject by a PM from Wing_Z (Charl), I just read this thread.
And I couldn't have formulated the conclusion better then you did ...:salute: But then again, English is only my 2nd language ...:icon_lol:

For me, these limitations on the stuff I need to work out this idea further, made me decide to shift my design interrest elsewhere.
But if you want to help Charl with the stuff I sent you: feel free to do so; as I replyed to Charl.

It was a nice idea, and I'm glad to hear these "limitations" are not a showstopper for you to still use it.

Best regards, Rob
Click to expand...
Rob, So does this mean Charl is going to try,and make it better ,and a possible public release for your refueling gauge?
 
PhantomP said:
...here's the gauge I use...:
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Phantom

PhantomP said:
Rob, So does this mean Charl is going to try,and make it better ,and a possible public release for your refueling gauge?
Click to expand...
I think it means that Charl is going to think about trying to get it to work on his system, maybe...
Jokes aside, it's something I really would like to see working nicely in FS9 - plenty of applications I can think of, and would really enhance the hobby.

awj112 said:
Arrestor Cables 2.6 does fuel transfers. Just Flight's refueling system sounds like what PhantomP is using.
Click to expand...
What I am looking for, is something that will lock your plane in formation once you've made the approach, and then add fuel in real time. Do these do this?
Jane's F-15E did this, and it was brilliant.
 
Wing_Z said:
What I am looking for, is something that will lock your plane in formation once you've made the approach, and then add fuel in real time. Do these do this?
Jane's F-15E did this, and it was brilliant.
Click to expand...

Only the LAGO Tornado and F-16 package had a refueling module as a scenery. Here you actually had to come close to either boom or drogue to get fuel! (though adjustable to your liking whether you get fuel when 10 ft behind or 0 ft behind :icon_lol:). Also there was some sort of voice contact. Only limit was that it was a scenery and happened on FL150 and 090/270 degrees. You could choose between the KC10 or VC10 tankers.

Hank
 
PhantomP said:
Rob, So does this mean Charl is going to try,and make it better ,and a possible public release for your refueling gauge?
Click to expand...
I doubt it :icon_lol:.

The refuelling solution I tried to create, had four major parts:
1. Given an AI tanker, plot an intercept course to it (on AP)
2. when there, lock onto the tanker boom (visually)
3. Start refuelling when locked
4. Stay locked, so follow the AI tanker exactly.

1,2,3 wasn't the problem (and worked OK). But 4. gave me problems, because the XML data I need to follow the AI tanker precisely, just wasn't exact enough.

Rob
 
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