Developer Upgrade Pricing — and SSW not “reading the room”

DennyA

DennyA

SOH-CM-2023
Make no mistake, I think it is absolutely fine and justified for a developer to charge an upgrade fee for existing FS2020 customers if they bring a plane or airport up to full FS2024 specs. It’s a ton of work to do it right — rebuilding the 3D model for the new LODs, supporting new systems, updating the flight model, etc. A reasonable upgrade price is completely justifiable, as these folks have bills to pay just like we all do. $2-10 is justified easily and I’d have no problem paying that for an airplane. For a more expensive study-level plane like a PMDG bird, even $20-25 could be justified if it’s really upgraded well. Some devs are talking free upgrades, which is above and beyond, especially for small devs like HS713 and Emerald Scenery Design.

This is the info I’ve found on various devs’ Discords so far. If you know info from other devs, please add it!
  • Got Friends: Upgrades being considered, no pricing discussion yet
  • DC Designs: Free or $2 upgrades for FS2020 to FS2024 native
  • Flying Iron: No upgrade info yet
  • Hangar Studios 713: All aircraft upgraded to full FS2024 support for free.
  • PMS50: Free upgrade for FS2024, but you have to activate/deactivate if switching back and forth between both sims
  • Simworks Studios (SWS): Pricing not announced, but they did survey their customers for opinions and will use that to inform he decision
  • FSReborn: TL3000 native update will be free for 2020 users; haven’t seen specifics on the otehrs
  • IndiaFoxtEcho: Any planes updated to full FS2024 specs may see an upgrade fee commensurate with the Aamount of effort put into enhancements
  • Aerial Simulations: An enhanced native F-117 will come after they release their 707; pricing not yet discussed
  • PESim: Free native FS2024 updates
  • Emerald Scenery Design: Free FS2024 updates
  • Flying Fries: Scrapyard Monster upgrade will be free, XF-11 compatibility upgrade is free but no info yet on if a native version will have a fee
  • SLH Sim Designs: Many airports will get free upgrades, the ones with full V2 enhancements will be “heavily discounted for previous owners.”
  • Inibuilds: Free or a reduced charge, depending on the recency of the release
  • Parallel 42: Products released in the last year will get free native updates if being upgraded; older products will have a $2 charge
  • PMDG: Per FSElite article: “The Boeing 737 for MSFS line-up will receive a significant upgrade for MSFS 2024, and there will be a “modest” charge for the upgrade, which “will not be a ‘new version purchase’ if you already own the 2020 version”. As for the 777-300ER, a MSFS 2024 upgraded version will be made available, and the team does not yet know if there will be an upgrade price. If there will be, it “will be quite small”. The DC-6 Cloudmaster will not be updated with MSFS 2024 features.” (Bummer on the DC-6! Must not have sold well, sigh.)
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But here’s Sim Skunk Works/SSW’s take, from the Microsoft forums:

forums.flightsimulator.com

Sim Skunk Works Leonardo (SIAI Marchetti) SF-260 AM

As these are different platforms and since it will require a considerable amount of working time, it will have to be repurchased at the same price of 2020. /SSW
forums.flightsimulator.com forums.flightsimulator.com

As these are different platforms and since it will require a considerable amount of working time, it will have to be repurchased at the same price of 2020.
/SSW
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I have all their planes for FS2020. If they charge $5-10 for upgrades, they’d make between $20 (if it’s $5 I’d upgrade them all) and $10 (at $10, I would only upgrade one of the F-104s, and I’d skip the SF-206 and G-91). If they charge full price, they’d will not make the $95 they’re expecting for me rebuying everything, they will make $0.

They will also lose the $25 (or whatever the price) that I would have paid for their F-84F when they release that, because I will be done with their company forever. And I have to think I’m not alone in this.

Here’s how much SSW will make from me going forward, assuming a $25 cost for the F-84:
  • $5 upgrades: $20+25 = $45
  • $10 upgrades: $10+25 = $35
  • $20-30 upgrades: $0 (and never a penny again)
So far SSW is the only developer I’ve seen taking this approach. I’m guessing from my customer service interactions with them in the past that they are a tiny company with only devs, and likely don’t have a business person to point out how flawed the stated approach is.
 
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I, for personal reasons, do not care for SSW. The only airplane I would consider buying is the SF-206, and ONLY if it has a left sided pilot version.
 
I can't say I'll be particularly inclined to support them either. Given how long it takes them to resolve any and all bugs I really don't see the point in paying to have the same routinely broken bird twice.
 
After reading this, I wonder if this is the end of new aircraft for FS 2020? A lot of extra work to develop and support two slightly different platforms unless backward or forward compatibility is built into anything new.
 
I have bought their stuff for years - most recently the F-104/TF-104 & G-91 when they came out for 2020. I think they are great products in terms of their realistic feel and look. I have seen the post they made about the SF-260 but not seen anything yet their stance on the other products. That said I would not buy those three again at full price if they are just porting over with things like walk round feature & career mode compatibility. I'd maybe pay a small "admin fee" if there were instrument repairs or broken flight surface animations etc. I would only consider paying in full again if there were demonstrably significant upgrades to those models - so for example new sounds, further upgraded texturing, load outs etc etc. Even then I think I would really expect some form of loyalty discount for being an existing owner. Anyway let's see what the SSW team decide to do - I'm sure they will have 'run the numbers' as many have done for them on the forums. Their distributors (Simmarket/Just Flight) will no doubt also be providing them with some sage advice.
 
For me, it depends on how much work the developers really do in order to either just make the aircraft have basic but full compatibility with '2024, or if they go all out and spend a considerable amount of time completely going through the product and redo a substantial amount in order to make use of everything the new sim offers. SimWorks Studios, in a Facebook posting yesterday, commented, "...[we] started looking into the default planes to get a better understanding of how the new sim works...the capabilities of 2024 are huge, even compared to 2020. Many default aircraft are only scratching the surface of what is possible and when developers learn the ropes of 2024, the quality level will skyrocket!"

No definite word from FlyingIron yet, but on their Discord they have mentioned that their Fw 190 will be the only aircraft of theirs guaranteed to have a free update for MSFS 2024, given how close its release was to the release of '2024. While updating to '2024 standards, it sounds like they're going to be taking the opportunity to do a lot of improvements to their earlier releases. For instance, they've mentioned that their Spitfire will be receiving major improvements for the '2024 version, so much so that all of the previous repaints made for the '2020 version will not work on the new '2024 version (they will also be including the earlier short rudder option, which many have asked for). There was also mentioning of possibly redoing the UV maps on their P-38, while updating it for '2024.
 
I have to agree with Bomber here. It sucks paying full price, or even a significant price for just *minor tweaks to get a current version working properly in the new sim.

But, the price can be justified *if* major changes and improvements are made.
 
It's a free country so let them charge what they want. The free market will determine what happens next (don't forget or underestimate what happened with Bud Light). So do what you gotta do but don't come crying later. Nuff said.

LouP
 
"...and when developers learn the ropes of 2024, the quality level will skyrocket!"


I think it's more accurate to say that the quality level will skyrocket with some developers, but not all. I would not be surprised to still see flat 2D prop disks in MSFS 2024. For many developers and end users, it's just not a priority or a deal breaker.


Tommy
 
a minimum of customer care would be nice... even if you have to work twice as hard. Then... as someone says, the market will do the rest.
 
Update from SSW this morning in the same thread…

However, we promise to think about a possible discount for those who have already taken the models for 2020, even if it will not be easy for distributors to make the differences between old and new users.
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If they’re going to at least consider it, I would imagine that by the time they actually have an upgrade ready, there will be a strong precedent set by every other developer in the market.

I have no objection to paying an upgrade fee; and for a significantly enhanced product, larger fees are absolutely justified. I’d be very unlikely to pay full price for any plane, though, even with a significant rebuild. An upgrade will not take equal effort as the first plane, because much of your research, design, initial 3D modeling and textures, base documentation, and feature decisions from the initial design — plus “customer acquisition” — carry over and give you some percentage of work already there to build off of.

And again, if you sell 20 copies at a $5 upgrade fee, or 1 copy at $30 (not an unreasonable ratio given how few people will feel the need to upgrade at full price, especially if MS delivers on their promise to fix 2020 backward compatibility, versus how many would be tempted by an inexpensive update), it makes far more sense financially to offer the upgrade price,
 
DennyA said:
And again, if you sell 20 copies at a $5 upgrade fee, or 1 copy at $30 (not an unreasonable ratio given how few people will feel the need to upgrade at full price, especially if MS delivers on their promise to fix 2020 backward compatibility, versus how many would be tempted by an inexpensive update), it makes far more sense financially to offer the upgrade price,
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They're just greedy capitalists. And obviously not the kind that is too good at calculus... The word idiots comes to mind?

I still remember the days when their attitude towards their customers was, let's just say "less than polite". Even nowadays their support is still the same. If any of my support staff would treat the users/customers the same way, they would have to look for another job.

Cheers,

Priller
 
I would like to offer a different viewpoint if I may. Not just related to SSW in particular, but in general. When I buy an add-on that's made for a specific simulator (let's say MSFS 2020), the dev is only (legally) obliged to give me a working product for that particular sim. Because that's what the dev has offered me and I accepted his offer by buying the product. A dev is not obliged to offer me any more than that. It is at the dev's discretion to do so, and (s)he will factor in the consequences for his/her business if (s)he will or will not to that. That is his/her prerogative. What I'm utterly bewildered by is the sense of entitlement that seems to be so prevalent in our (Western) society.
 
Lawman said:
I would like to offer a different viewpoint if I may. Not just related to SSW in particular, but in general. When I buy an add-on that's made for a specific simulator (let's say MSFS 2020), the dev is only (legally) obliged to give me a working product for that particular sim. Because that's what the dev has offered me and I accepted his offer by buying the product. A dev is not obliged to offer me any more than that. It is at the dev's discretion to do so, and (s)he will factor in the consequences for his/her business if (s)he will or will not to that. That is his/her prerogative. What I'm utterly bewildered by is the sense of entitlement that seems to be so prevalent in our (Western) society.
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That is actually the bottom line. You buy the product for a particular use, if the use changes and what you bought doesn't work anymore, that's on you not the creator of the product. In other words, the fault in this situation doesn't fall on the 3rd party developers who honestly as best they could made something for MSFS2020. The fault falls on MS for changing the platform while at the same time telling all of us that the 2020 stuff would be compatible. MS used that as bait, and we fell for it. How many of us might not have purchased MS2024 as early as we did if MS had said all along that 3rd party stuff will probably not work and need to be upgraded for use MS2024. You really can't hold the 3rd party developers to any sort of expected compensation, free or otherwise, when what happened was completely out of their control. All of the stuff they made still works as intended in the original product that they made it for. That's what we paid for.

I'll be disappointed if my favorite aircraft from 2020 never get fixed for 2024, but that won't make me think less of those developers. Actually, I would rather see them revisit those aircraft from scratch and be pure 2024 than hacked 2020, and I would gladly buy those again at whatever cost they think they need to get. The consumer market and I will decide whether it's a fair price or not and they might have to adjust accordingly.

From what I've seen so far, one of the first things I will do when the MSMP goes live, and we hopefully have the ability to delete/disable, I'm going to test fly all my 2020 aircraft and anything that isn't 100% will go away. If it gets updated to work, I'll bring it back, if not then no big deal.


Forest
 
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According the lead developer at Erasam (Tecnam P92, P2008 & P2010) the MSFS2020 aircraft which were created using all-default commands and functions will work perfectly in MSFS2024.
Those created with non-standard commands and functions will need those to be re-programmed, if there are equivalent default commands and functions available in MSFS2024 of course.
 
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LouP said:
It's a free country so let them charge what they want. The free market will determine what happens next (don't forget or underestimate what happened with Bud Light). So do what you gotta do but don't come crying later. Nuff said.

LouP
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This is absolutely the best post I read in this thread! Well said!
 
LouP said:
It's a free country so let them charge what they want. The free market will determine what happens next (don't forget or underestimate what happened with Bud Light). So do what you gotta do but don't come crying later. Nuff said.

LouP
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I think we all accept/acknowledge the free Country/ free World/ free Market situation here. This thread is just a gathering of personal views on our respective expectations and likely reactions dependant on what the various developers end up doing.
 
On a positive note, I just checked out my FSReborn M500 and it works great with the only exception being that there were no people inside. And that is not a simple aircraft. Thank you FSReborn!

LouP
 
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