Discontinued Aircraft - RTWR Executive Committee Canvassing

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vcaptmattsmith

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All,

From time to time, some of the aircraft used in the race become unavailable to new race participants. This is normally due to the aircraft being discontinued by a developer (freeware or payware) and the model being withdrawn from distribution.

Thus the aircraft no longer meets the historical requirement of "publicly available for download or purchase two weeks before the race starts".

The Executive Committee has no desire to punish pilots who have legally downloaded or purchased aircraft for use in the race, but we must also maintain the ability for new pilots to compete on an equal footing.

We cannot condone copyright violations of providing unlicensed copies of aircraft to team participants.

Thus we will likely be forced to establish a list of "Discontinued Aircraft" which will be ineligible for the race.

We have no desire to force pilots to verify the availability of their aircraft every year, nor will we condone 'ambush' declarations that an aircraft used in good faith during the race is suddenly ineligible. This process needs to be public and open to discussion by all interested race members.

We invite members of the various teams to comment on how the Executive Committee might establish such a list, identify such aircraft, what type of time frame might advisable to notify participants of aircraft ineligibility, etc.

Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts!

Matt
For the Executive Committee
 
Thanks Matt!

I see only two potential challenges to this interesting proposal.

The first is the almost unavoidable appearance of “punishment”, as you say, to those pilots with aircraft declared to be discontinued in their hangars, planes that have been in the race hangars for years, usually because they are fast, but also because they are fun, cool looking, and come with maximum style points (the SimTech Do-335 comes to mind here.)

The second is the inclusion of freeware planes to this plan. Does any freeware plane ever become unavailable? My “freeware FS planes” folder contains over 300 types going back to 2005, and I'd be happy to share anything I might have that others can no longer find, to anyone, and I'm sure anyone else here would as well.

The idea does make sense for payware planes (sort of), and I could understand discontinuing use of a payware plane that is no longer available for sale, so concern #1 above applies to freeware ships declared "disenfranchised."

If I think of any payware I think should be added to such a list, I will post it. Just looked at the A2A site, and the P-51H is still available for sale... :icon_lol:
 
Personally, it just seems to me to be another step towards making the RTW a P-51H/DH Hornet show. Just my two pence.

Edit: This doesn't make any sense to me. I have no problems with someone using an old payware aircraft that's no longer available and I don't have. I had the same chance to purchase it.
 
Willy said:
Edit: This doesn't make any sense to me. I have no problems with someone using an old payware aircraft that's no longer available and I don't have. I had the same chance to purchase it.
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I have to agree with Willy on this one.

If it really comes down to tin-tacks then the only aircraft should be the default aircraft that come with either FS9 or FSX. I have both freeware and payware aircraft in my hangar that are no longer available for download. I don't trust myself to fly the P-51H in the race as to me it is a very difficult aircraft to fly. The Hornet is ok if handled properly.
 
Willy said:
Personally, it just seems to me to be another step towards making the RTW a P-51H/DH Hornet show. Just my two pence.

Edit: This doesn't make any sense to me. I have no problems with someone using an old payware aircraft that's no longer available and I don't have. I had the same chance to purchase it.
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hmmm, interesting.
maybe that's one of the reasons
i've decided not to participate this year.

it's a bit disheartening to feel that
ones legs are not quite good enough
because one hasn't purchased one of the hot rods.

hey, just a thought,
how about having a race with just them?

there's my three pennies worth.
of course, i live in the past.
i still remember when i could
make a phone call for a dime,
so we all know what my 3 cents are worth.
 
He he just had a rethink and re-read of my previous post.

It would really throw the cat among the pigeons if one year the race was run where the only aircraft that could be used are the default aircraft from FS9 and FSX. That would make for some really serious planning, especially on the longer ocean crossings.
 
You know, I might could just get behind that defaults only idea. Since my favorites are pretty much non-starters with the P-51H and Hornet in the show, flying defaults only would about be the only way I could fly the race.
 
Willy said:
You know, I might could just get behind that defaults only idea. Since my favorites are pretty much non-starters with the P-51H and Hornet in the show, flying defaults only would about be the only way I could fly the race.
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Yes, I think its a great idea as well. Count me in if that happens. :wiggle:
 
Milton Shupe said:
Yes, I think its a great idea as well. Count me in if that happens. :wiggle:
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But the defaults are far from realistic.. ;)

And there are those that do not run FsX or Fs9.. :icon_lol:

And if I have FsX, but not acceleration, can I use the Virtavia Merlin in stead of the default Acceleration model...? :kilroy:


To be honest, the last thing the RTW needs is even more rules...
 
Hey All,

I have always suggested that there really only a couple solutions to the every year dilemma of aircraft. 1) Handicap aircraft to "equalize" them or 2) limit the number of legs an aircraft can be flown. Handicapping would be a fair bit of work unless you limited the number of aircraft needing to be handicapped. If you don't want to do the handicapping then you go to leg limitations of one kind or another. The RTW has been there in various ways.

Simply flying the defaults is NO answer to this dilemma because then everybody will simply fly the fastest defaults. All you have done is transfer the problem not solved it. And if there is a significant discrepancy in default performance between FSX and FS9 defaults you have another problem created.

Personally I am good with either handicapping or leg number limitations with respect to aircraft.

Aircraft diversity is a different issue. How do you promote competitive variety? The RTW rules have done this in various ways. In my opinion anything that can be done to improve this is good and I don't necessarily mean individual aircraft but "categories (speed classes or types)" of aircraft. Personally I do not think it unreasonable for teams to keep track of the number of times they fly a limited number of categories (however you define them) - but keeping track of lots of individual planes gets crazy.

I'll toss out a couple suggestions for what I think would be some interesting things to try - in NO particular order.

1) Ask teams for a list of x (10, 12, 15, whatever) number of aircraft. Then most popular are the aircraft for the race. I would suggest doing this by "category" - a limited number of categories of course) or you will probably get nothing but WWII fighters.

2) I do suggest that if done by "category" teams fly the categories equally (in number of legs). You can of course do the minimum leg distance or some such.

3) I have long thought that it would be a good idea to simply have a rule saying "NO GPS (or moving map display)" for aircraft manufactured before some arbitrary date. You want to fly a fast WWII fighter - fine - fly it more blind.

4) Still do the "special rules/requirements" - keeps it interesting.

Now as for the original issue asked about by the OP. Some here do not understand the issue. As Willy says those that have been around for a long time of course had the opportunity to buy aircraft no longer offered. But what about the guy (or girl) who just "discovered" FS yesterday. He/she has had NO opportunity to ever buy the aircraft and so yes it should be banned - unless the committee thinks there is a suitable alternative.

-Ed-
 
This discussion was prompted by a protest of a leg by ifly online. One of the teams flew the Alphasim B-2 Spirit which at that time was not not available and may still not available to the general public at the time. The ruling was the plane was legal and the issue of what to do with discontinued unavailable models will be dealt with this year.

There should not be much of a problem with freeware as most race planes can be found at on of the normal sites.

Payware models are the only ones that will likely be a problem.

If there is actually a problem to be had.

Truthfully all that needs to be done is the rule be amended to include all previously legal aircraft. There really is no reason to disqualify aircraft that can no longer be purchased or downloaded.

There would be no real competitive advantage to using these aircraft anyway.
 
Dangerousdave26 said:
There would be no real competitive advantage to using these aircraft anyway.
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And there we have it in a nutshell! There are very few payware aircraft that are now no longer available and what is unavailable can easily be replaced with something that is available that probably has advantages over original aircraft anyway in terms of usability, VC clarity etc. The whole question/issue is a non-event IMHO.
 
I saw where the guy that flew the B-2 for FlightSim posted there in response to this thread that Matt started there. Personally, it just strikes me as a team grasping at straws trying to gain an advantage. The RTW was supposed to be a "Gentleman's Race" with a lot of stuff on the individual's honor. I guess sometimes growth is not a good thing.
 
Hey All,

I don't think the issue is "competitiveness" - I think it is people's perceptions of what they can or can't have. Your going to "irritate" one group or the other - the committee decides where they want to be on this one.

-Ed-
 
I have no problem if we ban payware planes that are no longer available, but it's basically a solution in search of a problem, IMO. If I can't get the B-2 I'll fly the B-47 instead. But fair is fair I suppose, and I have no problem with it.

[Ed, warbirds in 2012 all have GPS units duck taped to the dash board... :)]
 
I don't want to step on anyone's toes as this will be my first RTWR, but there seems to be sooo much frustration built up from all the teams regarding the different "shades" of the rules involved.

I see one option that I've seen almost daily by the Flight 19 guys as a quick fix by those who want it. Just don't take it seriously!

Fly what you want, if you don't want to be in a two plane race, then don't do it. You won't take out the event, but you'll have fun doing it and possibly draw back some of the wayward souls who have left in the process.

Then again, I can see how this will effect other people's perception on the race and annoy them as well. :)
 
My original post regarding the default aircraft was born out of frustration. In the last couple of years I have spent so much time flying in the ORBX sceneries in low and slow aircraft I have lost my touch at flying the faster and heavier aircraft like the Mustangs and flying cigars. If I do decide to fly in this year's race it will be in a team event using the defaults if the time of day is suitable to my timezone and I am available. Even night flying is foreign to me at this time.
 
We are not just talking about the B-2.

It was a very popular aircraft with the SOH team for many years. Every team has practiced with it at some point. It has been flown in the race in the past by more than one team.

(BTW there is a freeware B-2 now available - I cannot say it is realistic enough for the race yet.)

One huge problem for the Executive Committee is that team practices are now almost exclusively held on private servers. This makes it difficult for other teams to know which aircraft are being tested and used. It also makes it almost impossible for the members of the Executive Committee to know what is going on.

Since members of the Executive Committee do not participate in pre-race planning or practices, we miss a lot of things which other folks used to call to our attention in the past.

My personal belief is that private practice forums lead to the explosive growth of barracks lawyers trying to protect their team 'secrets' and trying to use rule cherry picking to disqualify other teams.

Rather than actually trying to learn to fly better, plan better and run a better, smarter race.

Aircraft are important, but the key to winning, or being competitive, is as always the flying. Picking smart airport, flying aircraft which can be landed without crashing. Those are the keys to winning.
 
That's all well and good, but if everything else is equal, the faster aircraft will win and we know which two that is.
 
RFields said:
One huge problem for the Executive Committee is that team practices are now almost exclusively held on private servers. This makes it difficult for other teams to know which aircraft are being tested and used. It also makes it almost impossible for the members of the Executive Committee to know what is going on
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I think Reggie has hit the heart of the problem pretty accurately, and there is a singlular solution to the problem. The problem is secrecy, the solution is disclosure. By simply announcing ahead of time what aircraft each team intends to fly during each year's race, we can get away from the animosity created by "ringers" (such as the Epic LT or the Saab J-29) that have been introduced in previous years. Honestly, I'm not altogether concerned about building a better mousetrap, I'm going to keep on flying the aircraft that I know I can land with my eyes closed.

As the old hands of the RTW have told me multiple times, safety trumps speed every single time.
 
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