Discussing B17 boxes extracts

[mongoose]

Just as matter of interest WRT formations, are you familiar with 8th USAAF B17 formations for squadrons and wings?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes — I'm familiar with how the 8th USAAF B-17 formations were structured during their peak operations over Europe. These formations were meticulously designed for both mutual defensive firepower and bombing accuracy, especially in the face of intense Luftwaffe opposition. Here's a breakdown that should be helpful for applying to CFS3 or historical mission planning:

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Base Formation Units​

Element (3 aircraft)​

• The building block of all formations.
• Typically a "V" (Vic)formation with:
  • Lead aircraft in front
  • Left and right wingmen slightly back and to each side

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Squadron Formation (12 aircraft)​

Usually made up of 4 elements:

• Lead Element – 3 aircraft in a Vic
• High Element – 3 aircraft above and to the right
• Low Element – 3 aircraft below and to the left
• Tail Element (sometimes) – 3 aircraft staggered behind

This created a box formation maximizing mutual fields of fire, especially in the tail, top, and waist gunner arcs.

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Group (3 squadrons = 36 aircraft)​

The famous Combat Box:

• Lead squadron in the center
• High squadron flies above/right
• Low squadron flies below/left

Each squadron maintained internal 12-aircraft formations, but the group-level stacking gave a 3D shape often described as a “layered fortress.”

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Wing & Division Formations (100–300 aircraft)​

• 3 groups formed a Wing, flown in staggered trail
• Wings coordinated their timing and altitude
• Combat Wing formations were spaced for flak and navigation
• Eventually entire Air Divisions (hundreds of bombers) could be flying in coordinated waves with radio discipline and navigational beacons

OK you should know that the maximum acmb will put in 1 flight is 8, but one CAN add directly into the xml provided that one pays attention to the ID numbers to avoid duplicates. Here is an earlier "Schweinfurt 17_8_43 Cst1 101 Comb Wing 2nd ATF IN" mission of mine FYI

Application to B-17 Combat Box Missions​

Given your method:

• A 12-aircraft squadron can be split into 2 formations of 6, or one of 8 and another of 4.
• A Combat Box of 36 would be managed across 3 or more formations, each with precise spacing and altitude differences.
• Spawn mechanics could be layered with staggered entry times or waypoint crossings to simulate large airflows.

If you’d like, I can:

• Create a template XML structure for a 12- or 36-plane B-17 box based on your Schweinfurt logic
• Use OffsetScaleFactor, SpacingDistance, and altitudes to reflect real Eighth Air Force tactics
• Integrate flak zones, Luftwaffe intercepts, and GSL targets for realism

Limitations​

• There’s no built-in “combat box” or staggered wing formation
• FormTypes can’t be custom-defined — the sim engine ignores unknown types
• Even spacing and offset logic can’t reproduce vertical stagger (e.g., high/low squadron positions) in one formation

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Workarounds You Can Use​

1. Stacked Multi-Formation Layering​

• Create 3 separate <AirFormation> groups
  • One for low squadron (Alt -100 ft)
  • One for lead squadron (Alt base)
  • One for high squadron (Alt +100 ft)
• Use trail or shotai and vary OffsetScaleFactor for width

2. Custom Positioning with SpacingDistance​

• Though not documented, SpacingDistance in <FormationPosition> can be manually tweaked if you inject aircraft into XML post-MB.
• You can use it to nudge units left/right/back.

3. Chained AI Waypoint Control​

• Simulate shape shifts with offset waypoint paths, e.g., high/low squadrons entering turns at staggered lat/lon/alt

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Would You Like:​

• A working example of a 3-squadron B-17 Combat Box using these techniques?
• A plug-and-play template that starts at 24 aircraft and lets you drop in your own formations?

It won’t be perfect visually like in a movie or 3D sim, but for gameplay — especially against NJ intercepts — it’ll do the job well enough.


Me:
It made a mission which I had to correct WRT format and content as it didn't have my ETO ac folder. and some formatt errors. I am testing it later.

 

[MajorMagee]

I'd have to look again, but I think House Hobbit had this figured out back in the day. It's been ages since I've seen him, but I think he's still living in Dayton.

 

[mongoose]

I'd have to look again, but I think House Hobbit had this figured out back in the day. It's been ages since I've seen him, but I think he's still living in Dayton.

If he made real squadron and wing boxes that would be good. Should be around herer somewherer and I have most of his formations. I'll have a look.

 

[mongoose]

So far I see he only uses 8 player formations.no add ons, and 'shotai' formation, where I have used any number upo to 12 depending on the squadron and box info, although mostly 5-9 ac/formation. I hope what AI can do is play with coordinates and heights in less time than I can, as that would be forever! This is all experimental but I will feed real diagrams of the Schweinfurt mission formation later,

 

[sixstrings5859]

Most excellent news that you are working on this ! Owen is fine, he is trying to get back into CFS3 ! Still having trouble with his hands though. Please pray for him to continue to recover.

 

[sixstrings5859]

i will ask him the question. Will come back to get the specifics . Watching post.