Dive Bombing

[Cowboy1968]

My favorite part of the sim is being able to fly the old USN aircraft used right before the war and during the war. Well I have one bird i hate to tly, even though i will keep flying it. It is the SB2C Helldiver. the plane is sluggish, it is hard to get to altitude and so on. I have to hand it to Wolfi. he built a farly good model there. Good job

 

[Devildog73]

I have that same problem with Stukas. They are sluggish and take time to get altitude, but they are the tops at dive bombing.

 

[Cowboy1968]

actually the best dive bomber i have put my hands on in the sim is the SBD. It's a gem to fly and to dive

 

[Helldiver]

The published rate of climb for the SB2C is 1850 FPM and the SBD was 1700 FPM The SBD had a smaller engine. Somebody has played with the flight dynamics.

 

[Cowboy1968]

There is more to flying the machine then just rates of climb and so on. The Helldiver is a lot more sluggish to fly, it is nose heavy and it really doesn't like holding to steady climb. You have to "climb the ladder" in the Beast. The Dauntless on the other hand is almost a perfect balance. Its center of gravity is right for this type of aircraft.

The Dauntless is easier to control in the dive, while the the "Big Assed Bird" fights you on the stick.

Don't get me wrong I love the challenge of the SB2C Helldiver: once you figure out what the bird can do and what it can't do makes it a good plane to fly. The Beast could and did carry a bigger war load then the Dauntless, but it was also harder to fly.

Though none of these problems can be attributed to the design team. The faults that the Helldiver had was basically as a result of the original specs requested by the USN. Two Helldivers had to be able to be moved up to the flight deck on a single elevator, meaning that the aircraft had to be designed with a smaller wing then what the designers really wanted to give her. Even with these problems the Helldiver was still an adequate "Son of a Bitch 2nd Class" for a dive bomber.

I guess like the guys who flew these machines in real life, I got spoiled on the ease of handling of the Douglas SBD Dauntless or even the handling of the Curtiss SBC Helldiver from the late 1939's. In my opinion no real replacemant was found for the Dauntless until the Douglas AD Skyraider made its way into the fleet in 1946,

 

[Shadow Wolf 07]

"it is nose heavy and it really doesn't like holding to steady climb." If you have to put steady back pressure on the stick to keep her level, then try some elevator trim. Use the number pad keys 1 and 7 untill it flys level without stick input. Remember, as U use up fuel and expend ordnance, the center of gravity will change and you'll neet to adjust the trim some more...

 

[Cowboy1968]

Yes, I know about using elevator trim, what i was giving was my assessment of the aircraft. It is a bird that is adequate for the role of dive bomber, wouldn't be my first choice to fly, but i would take her into combat. I just find the plane to be a bit harder to fly then the Dauntless.

This actually followed real life, the USN pilots really hated giving up their SBDs. My hat is off to the aircraft modelers in our community because they seem to really do a good job of nailing the quarks of each and every aircraft we have been presented. Great work.

 

[Helldiver]

I flew in the SB2C and cannot attribute any of the things you say. The climb was steady. But we rarely flew above 11,000 feet.
Plus I never heard a single soul call it, "Son of a Bitch 2nd Class", That's some of the fables that guys wrote that never was born when the SB2C was flying. What do they know? It was called a "Beast" or a "Two-C'.
It was a good, safe airplane and always got me back. The hydraulics were terrible though.

 

[Cowboy1968]

All i can tell you is the experience my grand father had with the monster. He flew with the navy from 1938 to 1952. I guess my openion of the Beast is based on his opinion. And the computer sims i have flown of it. My Grandad flew with the old navy when a pilot was rotated from one type to another. Meaning he was taught to fly fighters , torpedo bombers, scout bombers and he even was qualified on the PBY. Once the War started he found himself in a dive bomber. fortunately he was able to get back into fighters after the Coral Sea mess. but by 1944 he was back flying a Helldiver and he hated it compared to his Dauntless. At the end of the war he found himself being put back into fighters, where he stayed for the rest of his flying career. By the time Korea rolled around he was commanding a squadron of reservist,that were called up for the action, that were flying F9Fs. And the fact is a lot of the old pre-war pilots did call the Helldiver "Son of a Bitch 2nd Class" and that was one of the less colorful terms my Grandad used for the Beast.

 

[Helldiver]

I would very much like to talk to your grandfather either by e-mail or send me his address. There's an old saying, "A poor workman blames his tools." I doubt that your grandfather said anything negative about the Helldiver (Except maybe the hydraulics)
But it would keep up with the fighters. It carried two 20MM cannons, carried as much bombs as a B-17, it could fold it wings meaning there were more on the flight deck vs the SBD that couldn't carry enough bombs to break up a crap game.
I think you heard what you wanted to hear fom poor old gramps.

 

[Cowboy1968]

Helldiver a question for you. I have been going over my grandfathers notes about the SB2C. He kept detailed notes on eveery type of aircraft he flew. In his notes he makes reference to making rocket attacks, medium and low level horizontal bomb runs, even notes on using a torpedo out of a SB2C, but i can't find his notes on applying the aircraft in a dive bombing run (so I use his notes on other types of dive bombers such as SBD Dauntles, SBC Helldiver, SB2U Vindicator) and even the SBU Corsair). So maybe i am doing something wrong that is coloring my opinion of the SB2C. Can you give me some pointers on using this bird in a dive bombing run.

My Grandad gave me his notebooks on the following aircraft

Fighters: his notes
Grumman F3F
Brewster F2A Buffalo
Grumman F4F Wildcat
Grumman F8F Bearcat
McDonald F2H Banshee
Grumman F9F Panther
Fighters: (notes he gathered from other pilots in case he got to fly them)
Grumman F7F Tigercat
Vought F4U Corsair
Eastern FM-2 Wildcat
McDonald FH-1 Phantom
Torpedo Bombers: His notes
Douglas TBD Devastator
Torpedo Bombers: Other pilots notes
Grumman TBF Avenger

Dive Bombers: his notes
Curtiss SBC Helldiver
Vought SB2U Vindicator
Douglas SBD Dauntless
Curtiss SB2C Helldiver
Dive Bombers: Other Pilots notes
Vought SBU Corsair

Flying boats: his notes
Consolidated PBY Catalina
Grumman JF Duck

Scout planes: his notes
Curtiss SOC Seagull
Vought OS2U Kingfisher
he does make reference notes about the Curtiss SO3C and the SC-1 based on observations of the type.

He slso has notes regaurding a couple of pre war army types he was able to fly and he has observations on other army types he seen in use.

hands on notes are for the:
Boeing P-26 Peashooter
Curtiss P-36 Hawk

I also just found his notes on the navy attack types introduced after the war. They are notes given to him by other pilots:
Douglass AD Skyraider
and his observations of seeing the Martin AM Mauler once
In this same notebook he has observations of the AU-1 Corsair

I guard his notebooks with my life.......they are one hell of a good source for info.

Still going through his notes: Found his info in the Grumman F6F given to him by other pilots

 

[Cowboy1968]

I wish i could give you his address, but he passed in 2003. All i have left is his notes........and i know notes from a pilot aren't the same as setting with those pilots, but I do have his notes and i guard them with my life.

I will say his notes on making horizontal bomb runs and rocket attacks are spot on. Follow his instructions and you won't have a problem.

 

[Cowboy1968]

Another assessment that seems to match my Granddad's assessment

http://www.historynet.com/curtiss-sb2c-helldiver-the-last-dive-bomber.htm#high_7.

 

[Shadow Wolf 07]

I did some testing and though I'm most familiar with the Wildcat and Hellcat, I found the following in respect to Wolfi's SB2C:

Keep in mind that MS designed their aircraft to fly most realistally on "Medium" flight model. AvSim's 1% planes are built to be most realitic on the "Hard" setting. I have know idea how Wolfi intended his planes to perform so I tried Hard first.

Taking off from one of Collin's 1944 carriers I found it was a bit low on airspeed by the time I got to the end of the deck. I had to struggle a bit to keep her in the air. I later did that again using 2 increments of flaps and it took off more easily. The plane with it's 4000 lb bomb load climbed slowly but I maintained about 1500 ft per minute climb rate at 105-110 knots airspeed.

It tended to be harder to control in keeping the wings level than what I was used to, but once trimmed I had no probs keeping the nose up. At my first waypoint - 17 miles away - I was at 11,500 ft. I went into a dive to attack a transport from 12000 ft, released my 2000 pounder at 1500 ft and pulled out at about 3.5 Gs.

On landing I used 50-55% throttle with flaps full. I had to use some hard right rudder at slow speed at the end but I landed fine on the carier set to medium pitch and roll.

I tried all this later with the flight model set to Medium and found a marked increase in the handling, especially in the low speed climb out and in the dive. I was able to land on a heavily pitching and rolling deck. :faint:

 

[Cowboy1968]

again even your tests showed the inherent problems with the aircraft design. I never once said this was a bad plane, just one that is more of a challenge to fly. And i do like flying it. And as i stated my grandfather, whom i agree with, said he would rather have his SBD back, because it responded better in flight, but i also stated I would have no problem taking the Helldiver in battle if i was forced to.

 

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Yep, but you can also try the VB_SB2C from here on CFS2 Addons/Aircraft/VB Aircraft. I handles a lot easier, Climbed to 12,000 ft in 5 miles less an the Wolfi counterpart with the same bomb load. It has no dedicated key for dive brakes - use the flaps key, that opens them. The flaps go 100% and you get lift, which you'll have to quicly trim off as you start the dive. From 12000 ft with the "dive brakes" open 55% throttle and in an 80* dive my airspeed did not exceed 185 kts and she went in smooth with good control.

This model doesn't have the visual goodies that Wolfi's has though... no visible tailhook, no perforations on the dive brakes and no bomb bay or visual on the third bomb until you salvo. But It does handle better... I did a roll with bombs in just under 7 secs

 

[Cowboy1968]

From reading my grandfathers notes and finding a site that listed a generic bomb release tactic i have found wolfi's flight model to be fairly accurate. Once i get her all trimed out she flies decently .

Standard US dive bomber tactics used in WW2 were:

approach the target from the stern at around 10,000 to 12,000 feet, line your sites on the bow of the ship and set the peeper line (bomb sight) to your altitude, open dive brakes (some pilots actually inverted here), cut your throttle to zero with full RPM on the prop, nose over to a 70 degree dive and dive tell you are between 2000 to 1500 ft. and release. Some pilots even released at around 1,000 ft. The lower you release your bomb on the target the more accurate your run will be, but if you release any lower then 1,000 ft, you won't have time to recover from the dive. Slam your throttle to the firewall, level the nose, and close the dive brakes and get the hell out of the target zone.