Ed, After last year and this year.

[Cazzie]

I don't think NASCAR has another driver with the sheer abilities of Kyle Busch! As good as Jimmie Johnson, Carl Edwards, Jeff Gordon, and a few other wanna-bes are, Kyle Busch is in a league of his own.

After watching the race yesterday, I have come to the conclusion that one-on-one, there is not a driver on the circuit that can compete with him.

I don't think he'll ever win a championship, however, because his style of racing is to race to win the race, not to sit cursory in the pack for a good finish. I like the boy the more I see him.

Caz

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I just saw this Caz. I don't disagree about Kyle - he is a talent. Now if he has the equipment, CC and team he'll do well. If anything - Jimmie Johnson shows the value of the word team in NASCAR. Knaus and Johnson are probably the best duo ever - if they get four in a row this year and combined with the 2nd place they had 4 years ago they are.

What do you think of the rumours that Kyle might be approached for an F1 ride next year? If anybody could race Trucks, Nationwide, Cup and F1 and win in all of them he could.

-Ed-

 

[wombat666]

What do you think of the rumours that Kyle might be approached for an F1 ride next year?-Ed-

In that 'All American' team that was 'announced' a few weeks ago Ed?
Neither of which will happen.
:faint:

 

[Cazzie]

Well, latest rumor mill has Scott Speed and A. J. Almendinger as top picks, they think Kyle doesn't have enough road course experience and is too entrenched into NASCAR. Their loss, Losers!

Caz

 

[wombat666]

Well, latest rumor mill has Scott Speed and A. J. Almendinger as top picks, they think Kyle doesn't have enough road course experience and is too entrenched into NASCAR. Their loss, Losers!
Caz

Peter Windsor was very cagey about the so-called 'All American EffWun Team' whenever it came up last weekend.

I'll believe it if, and when, they turn up on the grid next season.
Scott Speed and A. J. Almendinger.................................:faint:
If that's the best they can do then Windsor and Co should forget about it right now.
Far better choice would be talented youngsters like Jonathon Summerton and (do not laugh!) Marco Andretti.
Both have shown well in the A1GP cars, Marco didn't start that well but he's learning fast.
As for any NASCAR driver, never happen, and that's to be expected, the 'experience' of driving a bulky tintop on mainly oval tracks doesn't translate to any form of open wheeler, be it FF or F1.
Just like the open wheel drivers attempting to move across to NASCAR, the days when Andretti, Gurney, Foyt and even Jimmy Clark could move from one to the other with success are long gone.
Back to 'Team America' ...... I have a high regard for Peter Windsor, but the only way I can see into F1 is buying into it via a deal with (for example) STR, who are apparantly still on the market.
All the BS I've read about building a car entirely in the USA sounds good to the average punter, but it really is just BS plain and simple.
Even relatively 'simple' components like brakes are a problem, Hitco and Carbone Industries have been at it for decades, while I have no doubt the technology is available, the experience in the USA of using it on competition cars is not.

"I'll believe it if, and when they turn up on the grid next season".
My standard cynical reply to the rumour mill.

The only part of EffWun that is cheap is 'talk'.
:wave:

 

[Cazzie]

Peter Windsor was very cagey about the so-called 'All American EffWun Team' whenever it came up last weekend.

I'll believe it if, and when, they turn up on the grid next season.
Scott Speed and A. J. Almendinger.................................:faint:
If that's the best they can do then Windsor and Co should forget about it right now.
Far better choice would be talented youngsters like Jonathon Summerton and (do not laugh!) Marco Andretti.
Both have shown well in the A1GP cars, Marco didn't start that well but he's learning fast.
As for any NASCAR driver, never happen, and that's to be expected, the 'experience' of driving a bulky tintop on mainly oval tracks doesn't translate to any form of open wheeler, be it FF or F1.
Just like the open wheel drivers attempting to move across to NASCAR, the days when Andretti, Gurney, Foyt and even Jimmy Clark could move from one to the other with success are long gone.
Back to 'Team America' ...... I have a high regard for Peter Windsor, but the only way I can see into F1 is buying into it via a deal with (for example) STR, who are apparantly still on the market.
All the BS I've read about building a car entirely in the USA sounds good to the average punter, but it really is just BS plain and simple.
Even relatively 'simple' components like brakes are a problem, Hitco and Carbone Industries have been at it for decades, while I have no doubt the technology is available, the experience in the USA of using it on competition cars is not.

"I'll believe it if, and when they turn up on the grid next season".
My standard cynical reply to the rumour mill.

The only part of EffWun that is cheap is 'talk'.
:wave:

Wombat,

Kyle Busch is in a league of his own among American drivers, he can drive anything. I agree about Marco too. In his younger days, Jeff Gordon could have switched and driven F-1, he was that smooth. he's too old now and he "is" far too entrenched in NASCAR.

I wish you could come over to this rotting antipodean Commonweath and watch Kyle Busch drive. he can drive anything that has wheels on any track and would prove himself on road courses too if he just had the experience to drive them.

He is truly a "Natural". The fact that he is not even in consideration is ridiculous, he is at the moment the "best" race driver in America from America in in motorsport in America.

Caz

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Jeez Almendinger and Speed and Marco ... polo. I thought that was a swimming pool game. Danica before any of them.

I will echo Caz here. In terms of talent I too think Kyle is in a league of his own. If it has wheels Kyle could probably drive it to a championship whatever the series. I'd like to see him try. At least NASCAR has the open wheelers tryin - and I believe eventually Juan Pablo will win on an oval..

Caz jus imagine the radio talk if Chad was Kyle's CC in F1...

Chad I'm tight outta turn 13 and loose into 18 and aero push is really bad every time I lap Hamilton in his McLaren...
Kyle We'll put an 1/8 of a pound into the right rear and take a quarter outta the left front an lower the right side of the wing 2mm... that'll fix ya right up.
Chad but remember the track temperature is goin down 0.824 deg F...
Ok Kyle 7/16ths it is... (or maybe that's a Chad/Jimmie conversation)

Wombat called it right getting a car right on an oval is black magic and Chad has it down. Ferry was right in pointing out that NASCAR technology is next to none. I assume that F1 is operating at this level with respect to the car and the track. If not why not? Thats why I mentioned in another thread I wonder how they set these cars up. I'll be very curious to see if F1 has the exacts with respect to adjusting the car to the track down to same same extent NASCAR does. It's just a car - getting it right on the track is everything - isn't it?

-Ed-


PS I'm mixing threads here but it gets crazy tryin to be everywhere at once.

PS2 - Ferry why shut down the Chrysler/Fiat thread? I didn't see politics there but a very interesting discussion about the business of cars. Fiats in N America - interesting.

 

[Ferry_vO]

Thats why I mentioned in another thread I wonder how they set these cars up.

The basic set-up is determined at the factory with the use of computer simulations. Wing settings, gear ratios and a basic setup of the car. On the track the engineers can change the wing angles, adjust the tyre pressure, change caster, camber and toe settings on each wheel, change the stiffness of the springs and anti-roll bars. Each damper has four adjustable settings (Fast and slow bump, ingoing and out), ride height front and back can be adjusted etc etc. Because most cars are underweight anyway they have ballast they can move around the car too. On the track the driver can adjust several items like the brake balance, diff settings and engine mappings.
This may sound like an exact science but it will always remain a compromise between grip and speed, and what works for one driver may not work at all for his team mate. To add to the difficulty of setting up an F1 car the outside temperature, wind speed and humidity all affect the set up as well, as does the amount of rubber on the track.

As for USGP: they will need at least one experienced F1 driver as testing is no longer allowed once the season has started, and with two rookies on board they will not be able to develop anything at all.

And about the Chrysler thread: We had to close and remove several threads recently on the same topic. They just seem to attract too many people who are only looking to start an argument for the sake of starting an argument..

 

[Ferry_vO]

I found the article I mentioned in another thread about a Dutch magazine that visited the Red Bull Toyota team. They reported some interesting finds about NASCAR.

In qualifying the teams run with special open wheel bearings that will last just long enough to qualify but have less friction than the closed bearings they use in a race. The brake pads are tied down with a piece of iron wire to keep them from touching the brake discs, again to reduce friction. Special radiators are used during qualifying to get the engine on it's optimal temperature.
A special kevlar rig is used to line-up the rear axles, again to minimize friction losses.

The team has seventeen cars for each driver for one whole season. Three for the superspeedways, two for the roadcourses, six for the short ovals and six for the intermediates. These cars will cost about $15 million in total, which is why each driver will need to bring $20 million for a ride.
An F1 driver will have to do with maybe five or six chassis' in a year.

Toyota had to built an engine especially for NASCAR, since they didn't have an engine with the right specs. Their V8 has about 820-830 hp and can revv up to 9,000 rpm, sometimes reach up to 9,200 in a draft.

The Red Bull team boss Gunther Steiner (Former Ford WRC, Jaguar and RBR F1 and Opel DTM) explains the reason why NASCAR is so expensive: Because all the teams have the same basic car, there are no easy and cheap solutions to go a bit faster than the others. You will have to spend a huge amount to gain a little bit of time.

Testing is not allowed in NASCAR; the teams will have to give the racing tyres back to Goodyear after the race, and they will get a set of tyres that will only serve to roll the car in and out of the trailer. Data from the car can not be transmitted to the pit, so if the team wants to know anything about the car they'll have to ask the driver.

I think that for the amount of $$$ it takes to run a NASCAR team you could run a mid-field F1 team now that the costs have been reduced..

 

[wombat666]

The team has seventeen cars for each driver for one whole season. Three for the superspeedways, two for the roadcourses, six for the short ovals and six for the intermediates.

And that's ridiculous ........................
Not hard to save at least US$10M in that area alone.
It won't happen, given the NASCAR dictatorship, but there are far too many events crammed into a season, and at least 30% need to be cut.
And my particular gripe about the whole routine, remove the level one drivers from the level two series, that allows the new kids a fair chance at the series while saving the major players the expense of running a car in an extra race.
'More' isn't really 'better'.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,
Hmmm where to start...

Thats why I mentioned in another thread I wonder how they set these cars up.
The basic set-up is determined at the factory with the use of computer simulations. Wing settings, gear ratios and a basic setup of the car. On the track the engineers can change the wing angles, adjust the tyre pressure, change caster, camber and toe settings on each wheel, change the stiffness of the springs and anti-roll bars. Each damper has four adjustable settings (Fast and slow bump, ingoing and out), ride height front and back can be adjusted etc etc. Because most cars are underweight anyway they have ballast they can move around the car too. On the track the driver can adjust several items like the brake balance, diff settings and engine mappings.
This may sound like an exact science but it will always remain a compromise between grip and speed, and what works for one driver may not work at all for his team mate. To add to the difficulty of setting up an F1 car the outside temperature, wind speed and humidity all affect the set up as well, as does the amount of rubber on the track.
The Red Bull team boss Gunther Steiner (Former Ford WRC, Jaguar and RBR F1 and Opel DTM) explains the reason why NASCAR is so expensive: Because all the teams have the same basic car, there are no easy and cheap solutions to go a bit faster than the others. You will have to spend a huge amount to gain a little bit of time. Testing is not allowed in NASCAR; the teams will have to give the racing tyres back to Goodyear after the race, and they will get a set of tyres that will only serve to roll the car in and out of the trailer. Data from the car can not be transmitted to the pit, so if the team wants to know anything about the car they'll have to ask the driver.

I have little doubt that the same in terms of computer modeling is done in NASCAR with respect to initial setup but once at the track the human element mostly takes over. All of the factors that you mention that affect an F1 car affect a stock car. The - during race - adjustments are fewer and because NASCAR racing is so close that the time it takes to make an adjustment is a major factor in whether the adjustment is done or mostly compensated for some other way. The teams simply have to get alot right ahead of time. On the track a driver has a clutch a four speed tranny (with reverse) and no traction control and no engine mapping/adjustment. With no radio telemetry the communication between the driver and the CC coupled with enough testing/experience to have a sense of the range of variability in track conditions IS the deciding factor in the success of a NASCAR racing team - although races can be and sometimes are lost on pit road. NASCAR is a full team event precisely because every little gain that can be made is worth it - and many small gains are expensive exactly as indicated. As in F1 what works for one NASCAR driver mostly does not for another.
My question to you guys is: Does the average F1 fan really have an appreciation of how complex and how much of a team sport NASCAR really is? Or do they just superficially see a bunch of cars on a track always turning left?
My next point which you may or may not agree with is that I believe that the demands on a NASCAR driver are just as great and very possibly greater than on an F1 driver. Why? Because in addition to technical competence in terms of hitting marks the drivers have to manually manage everything from brakes to tires to fuel economy plus they have to be able to effectively communicate what the car is doing to the CC who has to then get the adjustments right during pit stops all the while getting feedback from spotters telling them about there opposition position(s) and lines around the track. In F1 alot of this is automated. The additional workload and the ability to communicate is why I think open wheel drivers have a hard time in NASCAR - they certainly have the talent to drive a car. I think it entirely possible that many NASCAR drivers could more effectively adapt to open wheel. That is my theory anyway and I'd like to see it tested with Kyle Busch in an F1 car.

The team has seventeen cars for each driver for one whole season. Three for the superspeedways, two for the roadcourses, six for the short ovals and six for the intermediates.
And that's ridiculous ........................

I think 17 is an underestimate when you factor in chassis destroying crashes. That said it gives you a sense of the level at which NASCAR racing is carried out - different cars for different tracks. The different tracks also require different driving styles as well. What driver adjusts to all those differences is another key factor in NASCAR success.
I also want to comment on testing. Testing is going on in NASCAR just not at official event tracks - so tracks similar to NASCAR event tracks are getting alot of NASCAR testing. This will likely be a topic for discussion for NASCAR this year.

It won't happen, given the NASCAR dictatorship, but there are far too many events crammed into a season, and at least 30% need to be cut.
And my particular gripe about the whole routine, remove the level one drivers from the level two series, that allows the new kids a fair chance at the series while saving the major players the expense of running a car in an extra race.
'More' isn't really 'better'.

I don't disagree with level 1 divers not driving in level 2 events (including trucks) but I'm not adamant about it as I see the financial reasons for allowing it.
Why is 32 races a year too much? Oversaturation? Maybe I don't know. However I would like to see Indy at the end of the year if Daytona is first.
Enough for now.

-Ed-

 

[Ferry_vO]

My question to you guys is: Does the average F1 fan really have an appreciation of how complex and how much of a team sport NASCAR really is?

No!

Or do they just superficially see a bunch of cars on a track always turning left?

Yes..

European cars are different from American cars too; there's no 'V-8 culture' here and the models that are used in NASCAR aren't even sold here. Oval tracks are almost non-existant here.

My next point which you may or may not agree with is that I believe that the demands on a NASCAR driver are just as great and very possibly greater than on an F1 driver.

I agree the workload of a NASCAR driver is high too, but I don't think you can compare it to an F1 driver. F1 cars have seven gears, not four and they use all of those several times a lap. The Monaco GP takes about forty shifts a lap, times 77 laps. G-forces in an F1 car can reach as high as 3-4 G's in a turn and up to 5 G's while braking. That's comparable to flying in an aerobatics aircraft, but for 90 minutes straight!
The drivers communicate with the pitwall as well, and they also need to look after the tyres, check their mirrors, adjust the brake balance (Several times a lap sometimes!) and diff settings and from this season they now have a KERS boost button they can use for 6.7 seconds a lap and a front wing they are allowed to adjust (Over a six degree range) twice per lap.

 

[wombat666]

"Why is 32 races a year too much? Oversaturation? Maybe I don't know. However I would like to see Indy at the end of the year if Daytona is first."

People tend to take the atitude that if they miss one event it doesn't matter because there's another one next weekend .... and if they miss that, well, there's another one etc.
And if it's 32 Level One events then it really means 64 events for the Level One teams that insist on running in Level Two rounds as well.
On top of that, travel costs must be a large chunk of team budgets, it certainly is for the Oz series and that runs to about 15 rounds IIRC.
I do feel that oversaturation of anything leads to boredom ......... which can turn into disinterest.
Me, I'm a Philistine, Daytona, the Brickyard, Talladega and the 'Road Races' do it for me, I think anything run on a 1 mile or under oval should be Sprinters ......... without wing into the bargain!:faint:

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Ferry Sad about the average F1 fan's appreciation of NASCAR. Strange No V8 culture yet they watch F1 (how many cylinders in an F1 engine?). But enough a that - I think the day will come when - Dodge sells enough cars through Fiat dealerships to develop that appreciation (see how I snuck that in there :woot an maybe the reverse will be true as well.

As for workload yeah F1 drivers have a job to do - lots a gears but no real need to clutch except at the start and if they choose to up through the gears. Hmmm how hard is that. NASCAR races are generally much longer than F1 races so how do you equibrilate 500 miles at talledega with 43 cars on the track or 500 laps (0.533 miles per lap) at bristol with 43 cars on the track against under 200 miles for any F1 race. What about guys like Robbie Gordon and Tony Stewart who have done the double. The Indy 500 and then jump into a plane and do the Coke 600 in Charlotte on the same day (over 1700km racing in one day). So I don't know how to tally up the differences in workload/communication. I think it's one of those unresolvable open discussion points. No matter what both are work and I won't buy that F1 is harder - I'll settle for equal but different though.

Wombat yes it is 32 Sprint cup races 35 nationwide series races and 25 truck races. See what Kyle Busch can do as he has driven in all 3 simultaneously. Course your only in your mid 20s once in your life.

Maybe the season should be shorter but what to cut?

-Ed-

 

[Panther_99FS]

East Ed
You state it's sad about the average F1 fan's appreciation of NASCAR so I'll ask the reciprocol question....

What is the average NASCAR fan's appreciation level of F1?

 

[wombat666]

Oval track racing is peculiar to America.
In the not so distant past brand new 2 mile ovals were built in England and Germany but strictly intended for CART.
Way back in 1986 one of the Aussie Racing Legends built a 1.3 mile oval for NASCAR racing.
Bob Jane was the moving force behind NASCAR out here but it ended up failing, as the American drivers refused to come on down and race.
The cars had no relation to the Australian market, and even when a 'NASCAR' Falcon and Commodore turned up they were so far removed from the real vehicle that they failed to generate any enthusiasm.
Most popular and regularly coming up with 40+ entries was the AUSCAR class, running 'regular' Ford and GM 4 door sedans on shaved street rubber, these cars were so popular they overshadowed the 20-(and that was a good entry) NASCAR grids.
IIRC the NASCAR period staggered along for some ten years and sank without a trace, despite several efforts at promotion during the traditional Easter event at Bathurst, where they were really popular .......
Nowadays the 'Thunderdome' at Calder Park is relegated to entertainment packages, typically a 'Birthday Special' (like the package my family kicked in for my 50th) where one has some driver training, followed by tracktime in an AUSCAR and if that goes well, some time in an elderly NASCAR, first under supervision and if you're good enough, solo.

Despite the rabid promotion of our V8 'Supercar' Series, most Aussies do not drive thumping great V8s, the cost of running one is simply too high, and point to point, smaller vehicles do it faster and with greater economy.
TBC.

 

[wombat666]

Following on .....:wave:
Motorsport usually reflects a Nation's style of road car.
Ferry makes the point very well, models that NASCAR purports to base the cars on are not commonly sold outside America.
It makes sense to see the BTCC running 2.0 litre 'hot hatches' because they are readily identifiable by the public, and more to the point, they are readily available from the local 'High Street Dealership'.
IIRC the ETCC run the same rules, so the SEAT raced in Spain or Portugal fits in to the British or French 'National' series as well.
During the 'Super Tourer' era, roughly 1990 to 2000, the National and International competition between serious 2.0 litre sedans produced some the best Tintop racing anywhere, certainly in the UK where (for example) almost every European and Japanese manufacturer were represented by 'Official' factory backed teams as well as well as numerous 'Privateers'.
Naturally, the 'Rulemakers' screwed that up, requiring stupid changes to regulations that made sense and produced great racing.
Instead of allowing Audi to run their 4WD cars and BMW to use the rear drive models (as sold in showrooms all over the World) they mandated FWD only ........ Audi built a car that the did not sell and BMW just withdrew.

The other side of the coin was the DTM, built around Alfa Romeo, Opel, Mercedes Benz, Audi and BMW, these cars were full on competition specials and during the earlier part of the decade looked fairly stock.
Audi withdrew IIRC around 1992 or '93, as their flat crank V8 was stretching the rules a little bit too far.
BMW followed soon after, as their 4 cylinder M3 was becoming uncompetitive, but Alfa, Mercedes and Opel came up with hairier and wilder cars which produced outstanding competition.
The present day DTM (have'nt followed it since 2005 or so) is a showcase for ultra hi-tech racing, the last time I looked Audi, Mercedes and Opel were running cars more complicated and advanced than F1.

And while the 'Super Touring' series were/are popular in Japan, the premier series consists of radically modified Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas, the 'All Japan GT Series'.
Once again, despite being GT cars, these are wild and hairy out and out race cars, regularly blowing such imports as Vipers, MacLarens, Lambos and Porsches into the weeds.
Bigtime!!!!
Not exactly 'sedan' racing but certainly 'tintops' .........
One other point, Japan does indeed have a modern and very well equipped oval, Motegi, owned by Honda and built for CART events.
I believe NASCAR ran an 'exhibition' race back when the much missed (by me) 'Ironhead' was doing his usual outstanding thing, but the Japanese were totally underwhelmed.
TBC.

 

[wombat666]

And finally ......
When you get down to the nuts and bolts, Motorsport is pretty much unique to the country it happens to take place in.
Formula 1 is (despite all the hype) very much a niche market, one that will 'probably' end up running in more and more dust and camel dung nations as Bernie and Co keep chasing big money and selling the BS about how 'prestigous' he will make their country appear.

NASCAR can never become an International arm of Motorsport because the infrastructure is lacking in other countries and the overcrowded domestic schedule could never fit such a move in.
If NASCAR refuses to travel outside the US it must remain a 'Domestic' series, while TV is fine most people want to see a real up close and personal 'live' race, and that's not going to happen.
It comes down to money in the end, and I doubt anyone will stick their neck out in the present financial climate, just the thought of freighting cars outside the US is staggering.
Even the Japanese have admitted to being in the worst recession since 1945!

"Wombat yes it is 32 Sprint cup races 35 nationwide series races and 25 truck races. See what Kyle Busch can do as he has driven in all 3 simultaneously."
And there is one of the major problems, a top ranked Level One driver competeing in series intended to bring on new drivers.
Is it really good to have such a driver running 92 events in a season????
I'd think not.

I'll get orf me soapbox now!!!
:wave:

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Wow Wombat 3 in a row! We are not really arguing here at all. But first... Panther.

You state it's sad about the average F1 fan's appreciation of NASCAR so I'll ask the reciprocol question....
What is the average NASCAR fan's appreciation level of F1?

Panther How many moonshiners ran liquor in Ferrari's or Mclarens? NASCAR didn't grow from the same roots as F1. Where is the Ferrari factory in the USA? Isn't one is there so of course the average NASCAR fan has virtually no background in F1 - and so no appreciation.

Wombat has it exactly right when he said...

When you get down to the nuts and bolts, Motorsport is pretty much unique to the country it happens to take place in.

I have no doubt of this and for the general populace worldwide who has a hard time seeing beyond there own heritage, upbringing and day to day world - what do you expect? Only if the family, educational and societal atmosphere people are raised in encourage looking beyond will people do that. Most don't - they settle for the world in which they exist. I find that incredibly disappointing but that is how it is.

You are absolutely right that NASCAR will not leave North America because of infrastructure and money and scheduling. Right now they don't need or want to - although I think they should keep trying. I'd like to see them add a European make of car of some kind. Not sure what - even if they can't move the races they can vary the cars and drivers.

My ideal would be something like if there were 25 NASCAR teams I'd like to see about 10 different national and international car makers - American roots, Oriental roots and European roots. Why not? What if there were a global V6 based NASCAR type series on a variety of tracks - equally balanced in style - D (oval), Short, Superspeedway and Road. What a great show that would be - I think.

As for the NASCAR season maybe it is a bit long but I don't mind. Kyle doesn't drive every race but he does drive a heck of a lot of them - probably over 60.

-Ed-

 

[Panther_99FS]

Panther How many moonshiners ran liquor in Ferrari's or Mclarens? NASCAR didn't grow from the same roots as F1. Where is the Ferrari factory in the USA? Isn't one is there so of course the average NASCAR fan has virtually no background in F1 - and so no appreciation.

-Ed-

FYI...
Dan Gurney & Roger Penske both had F1 teams at some point - But then again, I suppose the average NASCAR fan didn't follow Gurney All American or Penske racing either...