Just took a little test hop with the Hovercontrol Erickson AirCrane for FS9. I've had it a while but haven't had the chance to find out about it until now. Having read a little in the past about how these things are used to siphon dihydrogen oxide from lakes, rivers, large swimming pools, etc, I extended the probes to fill the drop tank and discovered I get a fore-and-aft rocking motion from the aircraft when in a hover over the water. It's not extreme, but enough to be bothersome. What I've read indicates in real life the aircraft is flown directly into the wind at about 5 to 10 knots while siphoning to assist the main rotor in carrying the increasing load as the drop tank is filled. This helps to lessen the rocking motion in the sim but it's still there. Flight otherwise is normal and the aircraft climbs as the water load is released, as I expected it would. Is there a fix for the rocking motion, or is it something to be lived with?
Erickson AirCrane
- Thread starter SSI01
- Start date
Donation drives
I don't know if there's a facility for doing that, but it might be worth a try. I can tell you one of these things almost killed me in 1974, we had a KS Army NG unit flying 'Cranes, UH-1s and OH-58s sharing Forbes AFB with the AF, and they were always willing to let military passengers aboard for fun. I used to put my name on the manifests all the time. We were hauling a derelict KANG RF-84 once, practicing hauling slung loads. Somehow at the end of one approach the RF-84 was left on the ground while the helicopter kept flying forward. My spot was in the jump seat between the pilots; one moment we had blue sky and green ground in front of us - the next nothing but green ground. They let go of the entire winch drum plus the aircraft, and we went up like an elevator in the Empire State Building. I saw a lot of worried glances exchanged between the pilots plus the winch operator in the back. Didn't stick around for the post-flight debrief but would have been interesting to have them explain the missing cable drum.
I also remember the pilots, whose names I still recall, taking the helicopter up several thousand feet into the air one evening because they wanted a closer look at the clouds. They had a movie camera and got some shots of that swirling vapor.
I also remember the pilots, whose names I still recall, taking the helicopter up several thousand feet into the air one evening because they wanted a closer look at the clouds. They had a movie camera and got some shots of that swirling vapor.
Jagdflieger
Jr. Admin
Lucky you SSI01 or unlucky you as it were!
I've never flown in a Skycrane, but they were a constant presence in I Corps, VN delivering artillery and ammo and other heavy items to the firebases. They swirled up more of the omnipresent red dust there and blew away more poncho hooches when in hover than even the Chinooks did and that is saying a lot.
I've also seen the Erikson Skycranes in flight a few times in both Washington State and Oregon.
There is no mistaking the rotor and engine sound of a Skycrane. It just has to be heard to be believed.
I've never flown in a Skycrane, but they were a constant presence in I Corps, VN delivering artillery and ammo and other heavy items to the firebases. They swirled up more of the omnipresent red dust there and blew away more poncho hooches when in hover than even the Chinooks did and that is saying a lot.
I've also seen the Erikson Skycranes in flight a few times in both Washington State and Oregon.
There is no mistaking the rotor and engine sound of a Skycrane. It just has to be heard to be believed.
Rocking
Well, I went and installed Jordan Moore's model ('S64E' model, circa 2003, 'Erickson_S64E.zip') to check it out. I also have the 2010 (?) model/version ('Aircrane2.exe') but haven't installed this one yet.
What I notice is that it is 'wobbly' on hover. This is probably (99.9% sure) due to 2 things. (1) the MOI's are too low. Higher (value) MOI's will make it 'feel' heavier, and thus steady it out a bit. The original MOI's are: empty_weight_pitch_MOI=6000.000, empty_weight_roll_MOI=4000.000, empty_weight_yaw_MOI=10000.000, and empty_weight_coupled_MOI= 0.000. I cranked mine up high (explanation as to 'why' later) to: empty_weight_pitch_MOI=69699.00, empty_weight_roll_MOI=61179.00, empty_weight_yaw_MOI=131797.00, empty_weight_coupled_MOI=0.00.
And the 'Why' is: Because I have my joystick sensitivities at 100% with 0% null (EXCEPT rudder, which is 95% and 5% null). So these values may be a little too much if you have your 'Controller' sensitivities at less than 100%. So, this is the 'other thing' (ie: (2)). Sensitivies!!!! Must have 100% for helicopter flying. No other way. Or, you can struggle. And not do 'steady' hover. And generally have a rough time with yaw, etc. Your call. I only SUGGEST (from experience-have been Hovercontrol member since 2003). Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule
Well, I went and installed Jordan Moore's model ('S64E' model, circa 2003, 'Erickson_S64E.zip') to check it out. I also have the 2010 (?) model/version ('Aircrane2.exe') but haven't installed this one yet.
What I notice is that it is 'wobbly' on hover. This is probably (99.9% sure) due to 2 things. (1) the MOI's are too low. Higher (value) MOI's will make it 'feel' heavier, and thus steady it out a bit. The original MOI's are: empty_weight_pitch_MOI=6000.000, empty_weight_roll_MOI=4000.000, empty_weight_yaw_MOI=10000.000, and empty_weight_coupled_MOI= 0.000. I cranked mine up high (explanation as to 'why' later) to: empty_weight_pitch_MOI=69699.00, empty_weight_roll_MOI=61179.00, empty_weight_yaw_MOI=131797.00, empty_weight_coupled_MOI=0.00.
And the 'Why' is: Because I have my joystick sensitivities at 100% with 0% null (EXCEPT rudder, which is 95% and 5% null). So these values may be a little too much if you have your 'Controller' sensitivities at less than 100%. So, this is the 'other thing' (ie: (2)). Sensitivies!!!! Must have 100% for helicopter flying. No other way. Or, you can struggle. And not do 'steady' hover. And generally have a rough time with yaw, etc. Your call. I only SUGGEST (from experience-have been Hovercontrol member since 2003). Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule
I've downloaded that gauge. Opened it, saw the gauge itself and a text doc w/installation instructions (sort of):
HOVER GAUGE UPDATE
Now you are able to assign a joystick
button to toggle the hovermode on/off.
You can use any EVENT ID just look into the gauges.h.
Example: #define KEY_AP_MASTER (KEY_ID_MIN + 44)
use the ID number 44 and add it to the relevant panel.cfg line.
->gauge00=hover!hover, 0,0,201,145, defAlt 10 tglEvnt 44
Then assign a button of your joystick. The master switch needs
to be on though.
Another unused Event is Autofeather arming on/off and the ID is 761.
->gauge00=hover!hover, 0,0,201,145,defAlt 0 tglEvnt 761
(C) 2005 by Arne Bartels
(C) Bitmaps by Dirk Fassbender
www.dirkfassbender.de
I've added the "gauge00" to the S-64 panel.load_right as gauge 38 in Panel 00. It's also been added to the panel folder, and the FS9 "Gauges" folder. Does this gauge also need its own window? I can borrow the position/dimension data from another pop-up, but I need the basic gauge info to put into its assigned "window," in this case it will be window 7 after I get the data I need to put in the window folder.
What's the next step here?:mixedsmi:
HOVER GAUGE UPDATE
Now you are able to assign a joystick
button to toggle the hovermode on/off.
You can use any EVENT ID just look into the gauges.h.
Example: #define KEY_AP_MASTER (KEY_ID_MIN + 44)
use the ID number 44 and add it to the relevant panel.cfg line.
->gauge00=hover!hover, 0,0,201,145, defAlt 10 tglEvnt 44
Then assign a button of your joystick. The master switch needs
to be on though.
Another unused Event is Autofeather arming on/off and the ID is 761.
->gauge00=hover!hover, 0,0,201,145,defAlt 0 tglEvnt 761
(C) 2005 by Arne Bartels
(C) Bitmaps by Dirk Fassbender
www.dirkfassbender.de
I've added the "gauge00" to the S-64 panel.load_right as gauge 38 in Panel 00. It's also been added to the panel folder, and the FS9 "Gauges" folder. Does this gauge also need its own window? I can borrow the position/dimension data from another pop-up, but I need the basic gauge info to put into its assigned "window," in this case it will be window 7 after I get the data I need to put in the window folder.
What's the next step here?:mixedsmi:
Wing_Z
Charter Member 2011
I was kind of shooting from the hip - the gauge you have in the Erickson is as good as you'll get.
I tried replacing the existing gauge with Fassbender's latest:
[Window06]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=193,269
window_size_ratio=1.000
position=0
visible=0
ident=10
window_size= 0.155, 0.260
window_pos= 0.845, 0.695
//gauge00=as532_hover!hover, 0,133,192,136
gauge00=hover!hover, 0,133,192,136
gauge01=S71_simplex!Fire_Attack, 0,0,192,131, MinPAlt 4 MaxPAlt 20 MaxPSpd 5 MinSAlt 4 MaxSAlt 20 MinSSpd 25 MaxSSpd 48 ScoopSpd .025 PumpSpd .025 DumpSpd .25
but saw no real improvement in stability
[YOUTUBE]ps-T2VR_IfI&feature=youtu.be[/YOUTUBE]
ALl helos oscillate to some degree in the hover, so to answer your original question: fight the seesaw with the stick, until you are stable.
Thanks - checked out the video, and you've got your oscillation well under control - mine is in the fore-and-aft plane, I can pretty much damp it out with stick input, but at the cost of some forward movement that just can't be avoided (I guess until I get the fine art of hovering down). I took two MH-53s by Rory Kelly for test hops last night, they have the same hover gauge as in your video built into their panels and achieve an absolutely perfect, motionless hover.
If you look hard at a CH-54 and CH-53, they are closely related, at least in the front end - I'm wondering about swapping some of the data in the -53's file with that in the -64's, to see about duplicating the -53's hover.
As is taught at Ft Rucker - "To fly is human, to hover is divine."
If you look hard at a CH-54 and CH-53, they are closely related, at least in the front end - I'm wondering about swapping some of the data in the -53's file with that in the -64's, to see about duplicating the -53's hover.
As is taught at Ft Rucker - "To fly is human, to hover is divine."
Had a very little amount of free time today, so worked a little on the S-64. Moved the "air" file from the CH53 to the S-64's folder and renamed it. Saved the old air file. Aircraft flies a little more smoothly now. Tried using the built-in hover gauge with the new air file, still get the little rocking motion. However, without the autohover, aircraft is now extremely stable in hover and can easily be hand-flown down to siphon water with no problems. That problem may be solved.
Re: the built-in autohover gauge - I leave it on during engine start-up. I had no sound for a long time until I changed the config file. Also - the autohover gauge has two vertical tapes for engine RPM. Normally the aircraft engines start when fuel cutoff switch is tripped. Using the old config, only one engine, and a fraction of the other, would ever show on this autohover gauge as spooling up. When I had no sound, and only one engine showing, I went to the config file, and found this:
[GeneralEngineData]
//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
engine_type=3
Engine.0=-8.300, -0.000, 0.400
fuel_flow_scalar=4.000000
min_throttle_limit=0.000000
I then made the following changes:
[GeneralEngineData]
//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
engine_type=5
Engine.0=-8.300, -0.000, 0.400
Engine.1=8.300, 0.000, 0.400
fuel_flow_scalar=4.000000
min_throttle_limit=0.000000
I.e., changed engine type & no of engines - aircraft now has two engines showing as spooling up on autohover gauge, and will respond to the two engine start keys, "J" and "K" for No.s 1 & 2. I also have sound. The sound I'm using currently is that from an Apache helicopter, which actually passes fairly well for a CH-53. I've seen and heard -53s in flight, the Apache's sound file lacks a little of the bass that should be present for the -53. It also needs a little more main rotor "clatter." Is there a pretty good soundset available for a CH-53?
Next project is to add into the respective config files the third engine for some of the USN/USMC -53s I have.
One last question re: flight performance; with both the old and new air files, the aircraft (whether a -64 or a -53) will fly forward very slowly indeed until about 40-45 KIAS is indicated on the ASI, even if you stand it on its nose; right at those speeds, there will be a significant "break" in the flight profile and the aircraft will suddenly speed to 60-70-80KIAS before you can catch it, also climb appreciably before you can catch it. Is it my flying technique that causes it to move forward very slowly from a ground liftoff or hover, even if extremely nose-down attitude is held - or is it the flight model? If it's me, how do I ensure a smooth transition to higher forward speed and fairly level flight at that "break" speed?
Re: the built-in autohover gauge - I leave it on during engine start-up. I had no sound for a long time until I changed the config file. Also - the autohover gauge has two vertical tapes for engine RPM. Normally the aircraft engines start when fuel cutoff switch is tripped. Using the old config, only one engine, and a fraction of the other, would ever show on this autohover gauge as spooling up. When I had no sound, and only one engine showing, I went to the config file, and found this:
[GeneralEngineData]
//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
engine_type=3
Engine.0=-8.300, -0.000, 0.400
fuel_flow_scalar=4.000000
min_throttle_limit=0.000000
I then made the following changes:
[GeneralEngineData]
//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
engine_type=5
Engine.0=-8.300, -0.000, 0.400
Engine.1=8.300, 0.000, 0.400
fuel_flow_scalar=4.000000
min_throttle_limit=0.000000
I.e., changed engine type & no of engines - aircraft now has two engines showing as spooling up on autohover gauge, and will respond to the two engine start keys, "J" and "K" for No.s 1 & 2. I also have sound. The sound I'm using currently is that from an Apache helicopter, which actually passes fairly well for a CH-53. I've seen and heard -53s in flight, the Apache's sound file lacks a little of the bass that should be present for the -53. It also needs a little more main rotor "clatter." Is there a pretty good soundset available for a CH-53?
Next project is to add into the respective config files the third engine for some of the USN/USMC -53s I have.
One last question re: flight performance; with both the old and new air files, the aircraft (whether a -64 or a -53) will fly forward very slowly indeed until about 40-45 KIAS is indicated on the ASI, even if you stand it on its nose; right at those speeds, there will be a significant "break" in the flight profile and the aircraft will suddenly speed to 60-70-80KIAS before you can catch it, also climb appreciably before you can catch it. Is it my flying technique that causes it to move forward very slowly from a ground liftoff or hover, even if extremely nose-down attitude is held - or is it the flight model? If it's me, how do I ensure a smooth transition to higher forward speed and fairly level flight at that "break" speed?
Wing_Z
Charter Member 2011
The answer might be:
If you exceed that it "breaks out" into normal flight regime.
The last incarnation of Antti Pankkonen's helicopter autopilot gauge combines hover/takeoff/cruise/approach functions which makes life a little easier.
It's at the usual places, and requires a little dedication to get a full understanding.
Autohover functions only under 40kts
If you exceed that it "breaks out" into normal flight regime.
The last incarnation of Antti Pankkonen's helicopter autopilot gauge combines hover/takeoff/cruise/approach functions which makes life a little easier.
It's at the usual places, and requires a little dedication to get a full understanding.
Null?
The video CLEARLY shows that the null is all WRONG (too much). Remember I said 0% (except rudder which should be 5%). Sorry, but that's the bottom line. You can't control 'hover' because your controller is not calibrated/tuned. Case closed.
You do everything to the cfg and air file to fit the model. You try out higher values for MOI's (part of any tweak). After that you are left with tuning (calibration/sensitivities/null) your controller (both from Windows, and inside FSX). Wheter it's a 'twist joystick' (prefered for Helio flying) or are sticking with yoke and pedals (yeah right-lots of luck with that for helio flying). It's not rocket science. It's simple as that. Not any secret formula. Common sense is all it takes. Some practice, yeah. But with a 'bum' controller you AIN'T gonna master any hovering anytime soon.
And another thing. What you use to give/take throttle makes a HUGE differenc in helio flying. You can't use quadrant. You need to modify your rig so you can do 'tap-tap' of keys F1 thru F4. Period. Use keyboard or get USB keypad and place it to left of keyboard so left hand can 'work' throttle while right hand works the joystick & rudder. If you can't/won't modify your setup then it's hard to try to convince you that flying a helio requres tiny changes to throttle and one must facilitate that. Slider on joy AIN'T going to do it, either. I rest my case.
Chuck B
Napamule
The video CLEARLY shows that the null is all WRONG (too much). Remember I said 0% (except rudder which should be 5%). Sorry, but that's the bottom line. You can't control 'hover' because your controller is not calibrated/tuned. Case closed.
You do everything to the cfg and air file to fit the model. You try out higher values for MOI's (part of any tweak). After that you are left with tuning (calibration/sensitivities/null) your controller (both from Windows, and inside FSX). Wheter it's a 'twist joystick' (prefered for Helio flying) or are sticking with yoke and pedals (yeah right-lots of luck with that for helio flying). It's not rocket science. It's simple as that. Not any secret formula. Common sense is all it takes. Some practice, yeah. But with a 'bum' controller you AIN'T gonna master any hovering anytime soon.
And another thing. What you use to give/take throttle makes a HUGE differenc in helio flying. You can't use quadrant. You need to modify your rig so you can do 'tap-tap' of keys F1 thru F4. Period. Use keyboard or get USB keypad and place it to left of keyboard so left hand can 'work' throttle while right hand works the joystick & rudder. If you can't/won't modify your setup then it's hard to try to convince you that flying a helio requres tiny changes to throttle and one must facilitate that. Slider on joy AIN'T going to do it, either. I rest my case.
Chuck B
Napamule
Napamule, your primer on helo flying was short and sweet! I will give the "tap-tap" method of hover control a try (read somewhere the sim doesn't like to be hooked to a joystick or other controller and also to have the keyboard throttle keys used as well - it confuses the sim, so the advice said - reckon we'll see). I knew hovering required considerable stick and throttle input (watch any cockpit footage of a good hover to find out) but it's all on the very "fine" side, no gross mishandling allowed. Again, many of these helos I just haven't tried until recently due to plain lack of time beforehand. I appreciate your input and experience.:salute:
Now You're Talking!
SSI01,
Excellent point. I left that part out? Hum! Well, the solution is to JAM the joystick (throttle) slider in place while doing calibration. The secret is to jam it in place at ZERO ('0') throttle, not 100% or 10%. While you are calibrating tick 'Display Raw Data' so you can 'find' that sweet spot (zero). Jam it with a piece of plastic. Do not use glue. Then when you use keypad F1 thru F4 the joystick slider will not interfere with F1 thru F4 keys. When you load your default flight you might get 100% throttle when you move your joy. Happens that once. Hit F1. Done. The rest of session throttle will work ok.
Then practice, practice, practice and soon you'll be able to do hover in your sleep (hehe). And get a good chair as I KNOW you 'use' a lot of 'BODY ENGLISH' when you (we?) fly helios. I'm actually amazed, and consider it a wonder we can do a hover at all, considering we don't get enough info concerning fine points like throttle, and controller calibration, etc. I try to desimate as much info as I can. Helio flying CAN be fun-if you do it right. I risk sounding like bragging. I'm not. If I can do it, you can do it too. Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule
Edit: And oh...one last (IMPORTANT) thing: TURN OFF AUTO CO-ORDINATION for rudder.
SSI01,
Excellent point. I left that part out? Hum! Well, the solution is to JAM the joystick (throttle) slider in place while doing calibration. The secret is to jam it in place at ZERO ('0') throttle, not 100% or 10%. While you are calibrating tick 'Display Raw Data' so you can 'find' that sweet spot (zero). Jam it with a piece of plastic. Do not use glue. Then when you use keypad F1 thru F4 the joystick slider will not interfere with F1 thru F4 keys. When you load your default flight you might get 100% throttle when you move your joy. Happens that once. Hit F1. Done. The rest of session throttle will work ok.
Then practice, practice, practice and soon you'll be able to do hover in your sleep (hehe). And get a good chair as I KNOW you 'use' a lot of 'BODY ENGLISH' when you (we?) fly helios. I'm actually amazed, and consider it a wonder we can do a hover at all, considering we don't get enough info concerning fine points like throttle, and controller calibration, etc. I try to desimate as much info as I can. Helio flying CAN be fun-if you do it right. I risk sounding like bragging. I'm not. If I can do it, you can do it too. Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule
Edit: And oh...one last (IMPORTANT) thing: TURN OFF AUTO CO-ORDINATION for rudder.