F1: Now a Team Sport
- Thread starter Wing_Z
- Start date
Ferry_vO
Retired SOH Administrator
It always was and always will be a teamsport (Unless drivers will have to build their own cars and do the pitstops themselves too!) it's just that the FIA changed the rules after the 2002 Austrian GP incident. No surprise Ferrari is not punished by Jean Todt & co. though!
wombat666
Administrator
I still think that if it were a team owned and operated by myself then it should be run as I see fit.
In the case of FIAT during the Schumacher years there was ALWAYS a #1 and a #2, today they have a proven double World Champion in Alonso and a good Journeyman driver in Massa.
Alonso is obviously #1 and Massa has done nothing to rise above his #2 status.
If the FIA want to do something constructive, ban all use of radios with the (possible) exception of emergency warnings.
I'm heartily fed up with the amount of 'Coaching' and 'Hand Holding' that these 'drivers' require.
'Team Orders' have been around forever and will remain with us, take away the ability to issue radio commands which are monitored by all and sundry (especially the 'Media') and the problem will go away.
Of course, the original problem came up toward the end of the last decade when DC was instructed to let Mikka the Flying Finn through, all the cretins who bet money on the racing wailed, gnashed their teeth and rent their hair.
Perhaps the stupidity of betting on Motor Racing should be outlawed.
And FTR, I have a very high regard for Alonso, but I'm like that!
Bloody Muppets!!!
In the case of FIAT during the Schumacher years there was ALWAYS a #1 and a #2, today they have a proven double World Champion in Alonso and a good Journeyman driver in Massa.
Alonso is obviously #1 and Massa has done nothing to rise above his #2 status.
If the FIA want to do something constructive, ban all use of radios with the (possible) exception of emergency warnings.
I'm heartily fed up with the amount of 'Coaching' and 'Hand Holding' that these 'drivers' require.
'Team Orders' have been around forever and will remain with us, take away the ability to issue radio commands which are monitored by all and sundry (especially the 'Media') and the problem will go away.
Of course, the original problem came up toward the end of the last decade when DC was instructed to let Mikka the Flying Finn through, all the cretins who bet money on the racing wailed, gnashed their teeth and rent their hair.
Perhaps the stupidity of betting on Motor Racing should be outlawed.
And FTR, I have a very high regard for Alonso, but I'm like that!
Bloody Muppets!!!
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Definitely the right move (to make it a team sport)
Hey All,
Definitely the wrong move to make it a team sport.
NASCAR has this one right. They are teams in the garage but not on the track. That said owners of multi-car teams tell their drivers to not wreck each other but race for the win. Makes sense to me.
The way I see this all driver records in F1 are meaningless if they win because of team orders. That means that Schumacher's 7 in a row don't mean squat because how many of those titles were "given" to him by team orders? So to talk about great drivers it isn't even valid to bring up Schumacher's name because how many titles would he not have won save for "orders". The series should be about the driver - not the owner - the owner and engineer and crew just contribute. These owners must have helllaciuos egos to think it's about them.
-Ed-
Definitely the wrong move to make it a team sport.
NASCAR has this one right. They are teams in the garage but not on the track. That said owners of multi-car teams tell their drivers to not wreck each other but race for the win. Makes sense to me.
The way I see this all driver records in F1 are meaningless if they win because of team orders. That means that Schumacher's 7 in a row don't mean squat because how many of those titles were "given" to him by team orders? So to talk about great drivers it isn't even valid to bring up Schumacher's name because how many titles would he not have won save for "orders". The series should be about the driver - not the owner - the owner and engineer and crew just contribute. These owners must have helllaciuos egos to think it's about them.
-Ed-
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Hey All,
Definitely the wrong move to make it a team sport.
-Ed-
Sorry,
Can't take you seriously here since you really don't like F1.....
wombat666
Administrator
Sorry Ed but Panther has it right, you're comparison with "Modern F1" to previous decades is way off.
Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, the immortal Juan Manuel Fangio, Emerson Fittipaldi, Denny Hulme, and of course, Nikki Lauda won without 'Team Orders'.
While one could say that Mike Hawthorn, Jody Scheckter and even Mario Andretti had assistance from their team mates it was always a 'Gentleman's Agreement' and not team orders.
Villeneuve could have won in 1979 but he believed that he was the #2 and had plenty time in the future for his chance, sadly he ran out of time. Hawthorn won in 1958 because Phil Hill regarded him as the senior driver and as Mike was ahead on points he let him through.
Andretti stepped into Team Lotus with a dog of a car, a car he developed to become the first dominant ground effects F1 car.
Ronnie Peterson signed on in time to enjoy the benefits of Mario's work on the clear understanding that he was #2, and he would become #1 for the following year, again, sadly another Gentleman Driver who died before that came about.
Alain Prost was always the leading McLaren driver until Senna came on board, things came to a head at Suzuka in 1989 and from then on Senna insisted that he was teamed with drivers who were #2 and #2 only!
And of course, after Schumacher found himself being out driven on several occasions by Martin Brundle in 1992 he insisted on journeymen team mates only.
Nigel Bloody Mansell would (probably) never have won a title if it had not been for Frank Williams backing him against Ricardo Patrese.
I could go on but I think you get the picture.
As for today, I still say if I own a team and finance it then I decide (after a certain time) who becomes the driver that is team leader and who is back up.
I maintain my stance on radio 'coaching' as well, it is OK from a safety point of view and necessary on ovals but even those good old boys in NASCAR rely too much on having their hands held.
Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, the immortal Juan Manuel Fangio, Emerson Fittipaldi, Denny Hulme, and of course, Nikki Lauda won without 'Team Orders'.
While one could say that Mike Hawthorn, Jody Scheckter and even Mario Andretti had assistance from their team mates it was always a 'Gentleman's Agreement' and not team orders.
Villeneuve could have won in 1979 but he believed that he was the #2 and had plenty time in the future for his chance, sadly he ran out of time. Hawthorn won in 1958 because Phil Hill regarded him as the senior driver and as Mike was ahead on points he let him through.
Andretti stepped into Team Lotus with a dog of a car, a car he developed to become the first dominant ground effects F1 car.
Ronnie Peterson signed on in time to enjoy the benefits of Mario's work on the clear understanding that he was #2, and he would become #1 for the following year, again, sadly another Gentleman Driver who died before that came about.
Alain Prost was always the leading McLaren driver until Senna came on board, things came to a head at Suzuka in 1989 and from then on Senna insisted that he was teamed with drivers who were #2 and #2 only!
And of course, after Schumacher found himself being out driven on several occasions by Martin Brundle in 1992 he insisted on journeymen team mates only.
Nigel Bloody Mansell would (probably) never have won a title if it had not been for Frank Williams backing him against Ricardo Patrese.
I could go on but I think you get the picture.
As for today, I still say if I own a team and finance it then I decide (after a certain time) who becomes the driver that is team leader and who is back up.
I maintain my stance on radio 'coaching' as well, it is OK from a safety point of view and necessary on ovals but even those good old boys in NASCAR rely too much on having their hands held.
Hey All,
I guess it means by what you mean by team. I'm objecting to the idea that the number 2 driver's sole role is to never pass the number 1 driver always block for the number 1 driver and if he finds himself ahead of the number one driver to always pull over to the side of the road and wait for the number 1 to pass him. The number 2 driver is thus never allowed to win a race unless the number 1 driver crashes. I assume that this is what the idea of team is that is promoted/desired by the owners. The rest of the aspects of the word team I have no problem with.
-Ed-
I guess it means by what you mean by team. I'm objecting to the idea that the number 2 driver's sole role is to never pass the number 1 driver always block for the number 1 driver and if he finds himself ahead of the number one driver to always pull over to the side of the road and wait for the number 1 to pass him. The number 2 driver is thus never allowed to win a race unless the number 1 driver crashes. I assume that this is what the idea of team is that is promoted/desired by the owners. The rest of the aspects of the word team I have no problem with.
-Ed-
wombat666
Administrator
F1: Red Bull May Now Use Team Orders - Horner
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner says he won't rule out using team orders in light of the Ferrari verdict...
With the FIA going easy on Ferrari's use of team orders at Hockenheim, Christian Horner is not ruling out employing similar tactics at Red Bull.
The Italian team was fined $100,000 and ordered to pay the FIA's court costs for the disciplinary hearing last Wednesday, but otherwise escaped penalty for illegally moving Fernando Alonso ahead of Felipe Massa in the German race.
Given the ultra-competitiveness of F1 at present, rival teams might now need to exploit the same loophole, Horner suggested at Monza.
"I think everyone in Formula One, certainly the top three teams, will have to consider it.
"I wish we had known before Istanbul!" he remarked, referring to the race in which Sebastian Vettel collided with his teammate Mark Webber while they jousted for the lead.
The FIA aside, Ferrari has been heavily criticized for its Hockenheim actions, but Horner said the World Championship is paramount.
"Ferrari said they would look idiots if they lost the title by five points," he said.
"But if we end up losing the title by five points, after allowing Mark and Sebastian to race, then we are going to look like idiots," added the Briton.
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner says he won't rule out using team orders in light of the Ferrari verdict...
With the FIA going easy on Ferrari's use of team orders at Hockenheim, Christian Horner is not ruling out employing similar tactics at Red Bull.
The Italian team was fined $100,000 and ordered to pay the FIA's court costs for the disciplinary hearing last Wednesday, but otherwise escaped penalty for illegally moving Fernando Alonso ahead of Felipe Massa in the German race.
Given the ultra-competitiveness of F1 at present, rival teams might now need to exploit the same loophole, Horner suggested at Monza.
"I think everyone in Formula One, certainly the top three teams, will have to consider it.
"I wish we had known before Istanbul!" he remarked, referring to the race in which Sebastian Vettel collided with his teammate Mark Webber while they jousted for the lead.
The FIA aside, Ferrari has been heavily criticized for its Hockenheim actions, but Horner said the World Championship is paramount.
"Ferrari said they would look idiots if they lost the title by five points," he said.
"But if we end up losing the title by five points, after allowing Mark and Sebastian to race, then we are going to look like idiots," added the Briton.
wombat666
Administrator
F1: Drivers Want Clarity On Team Orders Rule
In light of the FIA's decision not to further penalize Ferrari, drivers wonder if the team orders ban can be taken seriously...
F1 drivers on Thursday said the FIA needs to clarify the ban on team orders in the wake of Ferrari's Paris hearing a little more than 24 hours earlier.
At Hockenheim in July, Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa swapped places in a move that stewards – imposing a $100,000 fine – deemed a breach of the team orders ban.
The breach was referred to the World Motor Sport Council, but on Wednesday in Paris the governing body did not apply further sanctions, apparently due to a lack of evidence.
The FIA released the full dossier of its decision on Friday, revealing that while it thought Ferrari had breached the rule, there were likely "many examples" of similar or better-veiled breaches in recent years.
The controversial regulation will therefore be reviewed, but not before more racing takes place, including this weekend at Monza.
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said the Ferrari affair is a "precedent" in the event that teams want to move drivers around in a race.
"If the team has enough money, then it seems like you can do something like that," Force India's Adrian Sutil said.
Michael Schumacher volunteered to be a part of the rule's review process.
"It is necessary to find a very clear situation that is understood by everybody," said the seven time World Champion.
Mark Webber agrees that, at present, there is a rule banning team orders but a precedent that now allows teams to break it without receiving a sporting sanction.
"Until we get a clear clarification on what we know is right and wrong, it turns out what Ferrari did at Hockenheim wasn't a big problem for the FIA," he said.
In light of the FIA's decision not to further penalize Ferrari, drivers wonder if the team orders ban can be taken seriously...
F1 drivers on Thursday said the FIA needs to clarify the ban on team orders in the wake of Ferrari's Paris hearing a little more than 24 hours earlier.
At Hockenheim in July, Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa swapped places in a move that stewards – imposing a $100,000 fine – deemed a breach of the team orders ban.
The breach was referred to the World Motor Sport Council, but on Wednesday in Paris the governing body did not apply further sanctions, apparently due to a lack of evidence.
The FIA released the full dossier of its decision on Friday, revealing that while it thought Ferrari had breached the rule, there were likely "many examples" of similar or better-veiled breaches in recent years.
The controversial regulation will therefore be reviewed, but not before more racing takes place, including this weekend at Monza.
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said the Ferrari affair is a "precedent" in the event that teams want to move drivers around in a race.
"If the team has enough money, then it seems like you can do something like that," Force India's Adrian Sutil said.
Michael Schumacher volunteered to be a part of the rule's review process.
"It is necessary to find a very clear situation that is understood by everybody," said the seven time World Champion.
Mark Webber agrees that, at present, there is a rule banning team orders but a precedent that now allows teams to break it without receiving a sporting sanction.
"Until we get a clear clarification on what we know is right and wrong, it turns out what Ferrari did at Hockenheim wasn't a big problem for the FIA," he said.