FE2 Climb Rate and Ceiling

[Bullethead]

All the refs I have, and the stats shown in OFF, say that the FE2b has a ceiling of 11000'. However, it is impossible to achieve more than about 1/2 this altitude in the game.

In Flanders (average field alt about 50-60' ASL), the best sustained climb rate of the FE2b is 350fpm, even without bombs. This miniscule ROC rapidly fades with altitude, and disappears entirely at about 5700' ASL. It's just barely possible to reach 6000' ASL by "climbing the stairs", starting from max level speed and "zooming" up a few dozen feet at a time. But that's about it. It requires about 25-30 minutes to reach even this altitude.

This does not appear to be affected by the altitude limit for the player set in the OFF workshop. Regardless of that, climb and ceiling appear the same.

 

[Siggi]

Test some other a/c and see if they can reach their rated ceiling, then we'll know if it's a general issue or just that one plane.

Is the altimeter weirdly graduated or something, possibly?

 

[Bullethead]

Test some other a/c and see if they can reach their rated ceiling, then we'll know if it's a general issue or just that one plane.

Yeah, with the Fee seemingly hosed, I'm on my way to attempt a campaign on Harry Tates in Bloody April as my next exercise in masochism .

Is the altimeter weirdly graduated or something, possibly?

I'm got my numbers from the HUD instruments, not those on the plane's 3D panel. The 3D ones don't really provide enough granularity for making reports like this.

BTW, I've got auto-mixture on.

 

[Polovski]

Bullethead. Throw out all the fuel apart from say 15-20% enough to climb and land (not sure what they used to calc that height but perhaps they left guns and/or the observer behind lol) and have another go?

Actually I just tried with 20% fuel and got to 9500ft and still climbing before the fuel went. In real life maybe chuck out a gun and some ammo, put bit more fuel in and I think it will go a lot higher (manual mixture leaned early btw but not sure it makes difference to auto).

 

[Bullethead]

Actually I just tried with 20% fuel and got to 9500ft and still climbing before the fuel went. In real life maybe chuck out a gun and some ammo, put bit more fuel in and I think it will go a lot higher

That's hardly practical for operational flying . In real life, they could reach 11,000' with the usual operational load and fly for many miles, or so I gather from reading reports of Germans shooting them down....

I just tried the RE8, BTW, and it claims a ceiling of 10,000' in the docs, and from what I've read elsewhere. I'd say that's dead on in the game. Starting with 100% fuel, that's about where the ROC petered out. I could got it to 10200' and could have gone a hair higher, but it really wasn't worth the trouble The typo I saw on its data was that it's max speed was listed as 70 knots, but I could go along at 85 IAS no problem at 10000', which I recall is about right.

So anyway, I think the FE2 has a problem with its climb performance. Other planes seem to climb to where they say they should, but not this one.

 

[Rugbyfan1972]

Bullethead,

I realise you are finding the climbing performance of the fe2b dissapointing in BHAH, but have you considered the following which may help to explain it.

1 The aircraft is modelled to replicate both the fe2b and the fe2d
2 this means that it has an extra rear facing lewis gun on a post which weighs 28lb plus the extra 5-6 drums of ammo each holding either 47 or 97 rounds depending on the type of drum used plus the weight of the post used to support the rear lewis.
3 When not in use the rear lewis would have had gravity affecting it i.e. it would have hung vertically or as near as possible on the post thus giving the maximum drag available.
4 The powerplants differed in the fe2b 160hp and the fe2d 250hp, my betting is seeing as the fe2b is the aircraft listed in aircraft stats the developers have gone with the 160hp variant.

All of the above factors will severely limit the ability of the plane in human hands, although flying as Jasta4 I have encountered fe2d's at 11000 feet.

Thanks
Rugbyfan1972

 

[Bullethead]

I realise you are finding the climbing performance of the fe2b dissapointing in BHAH, but have you considered the following which may help to explain it.

1 The aircraft is modelled to replicate both the fe2b and the fe2d
2 this means that it has an extra rear facing lewis gun on a post which weighs 28lb plus the extra 5-6 drums of ammo each holding either 47 or 97 rounds depending on the type of drum used plus the weight of the post used to support the rear lewis.

Gotta disagree. Both the b and d had the rear gun.

The FE2b in the game is only the FE2b, it ain't a compromise with the FE2d AFAIK. But it substitutes for the FE2d as needed.

The d had a bigger engine and longer wings, but these factors were canceled out by more weight (3rd Lewis fixed for pilot) and higher drag (huge radiator for new engine in less-streamlined nacelle). Thus, both the b and d had essentially the same performance. The only real difference between them in game terms is the d's fixed gun. Both should be able to reach 11,000 feet manually with full combat load (less fuel burned getting up there).

All of the above factors will severely limit the ability of the plane in human hands, although flying as Jasta4 I have encountered fe2d's at 11000 feet.

I think this is only because the encounter sets up with them that high, because that's where they're supposed to be. Like how warping will put you at operational altitude. They really can't get there, either manually or under human controls, however, because they have zero ROC above 5700'.

I fly as a sergeant and my leader never gets above 5500' even when the briefing calls for 7000-10000'. I suppose I could warp and get there, but I don't want to.

I believe the low ROC and ceiling of the FE2 in the game is a bug. When you get it up to 5700-6000', as high as it will go with enough fuel to get anywhere but no bombs, it doesn't fly like it's at the end of its leash. It has absolutely no trouble maintaining that altitude even if you do hard turns. It still putts along at 85 IAS, the controls are all as responsive and authoritative as at sea level, etc. IOW, the airplane at it's in-game ceiling flies like it's still a long way below its real ceiling.

 

[Rugbyfan1972]

Bullethead,

Only the fe2d had the rear gun and it also had a fixed forward firing lewis operated by the pilot, whiich is not modelled in BHAH.

The fe2b only had the single gun operated by the observer, I have just checked in Jane's fighting aircraft of world war one and all the pictures of the fe2b show it with only a single gun and no visible post for a rear gun.

I would post the picture as proof but I am not sure how to post pictures on this forum

If you can provide proof that the fe2b had a rear gun please do.

I am now beginning to sound like gimpyguy. lol

Thanks
Rugbyfan

 

[Bletchley]

The early FE2b had the 120 hp Beardmore engine (a licensed copy of the Austro-Daimler), but squadrons were gradually re-equiped with the new upgraded (but less reliable) 160 hp Beardmore from February 1916 onwards. The FE2b with 160 hp Beardmore could reach 6,500 ft in approx. 19 mins, and 10,000 ft in approx. 40 mins, with a service ceiling of 11,000 ft. Maybe the FE2b in OFF is modelled on the early (120 hp) version?

I have noticed, however, that altitude effects in Phase 3 appear to have been much increased over those of Phase 2, and even with auto-mixture selected this might be effecting the flight model.

Bletchley

Source of info. above for FE2b: Bruce, J.M. Fighters, vol.2 (War planes of the First World War). Macdonald, 1968.

Same source has a photograph of the FE2b with caption "The aircraft has the more-or-less standard armament of two Lewis guns, the rear one of which was on a telescopic mounting and could be fired rearwards over the upper wing", and this is clearly shown.

 

[Bullethead]

The FE2b with 160 hp Beardmore could reach 6,500 ft in approx. 19 mins, and 10,000 ft in approx. 40 mins, with a service ceiling of 11,000 ft. Maybe the FE2b in OFF is modelled on the early (120 hp) version?

The in-game stats say it's the 160hp version, although the motor type is listed as "inline rotary"

I've spent a lot of time trying to learn the FE2's characteristics because it's the plane I'm most interested in flying campaigns with. I've done a lot of climbing tests, because after getting less climb and ceiling than advertised, I figured I was doing something wrong, so kept trying again. And I can't get anything like the climb and ceiling you show above, which is what I've got in my books, too. I have therefore come to the conclusion that for some reason, the FE2 in OFF isn't climbing like it should.

I have noticed, however, that altitude effects in Phase 3 appear to have been much increased over those of Phase 2, and even with auto-mixture selected this might be effecting the flight model.

I never had P1 or P2 to compare to. However, every other plane I've tried in P3 has reached its advertised ceiling in a time in reasonable agreement with my books (where they show that). So I don't think this is some global FM issue, but something specific to the FE2.

Granted, the data on WW1 plane performance available today is nowhere near as detailed and exact as for later planes. Back in WW1, instruments to record it weren't nearly as accurate, they didn't record all the data we might want in the first place, a lot of what was recorded has been lost along the way, and sources today often disagree over what's left. Thus, I do not expect the in-game performance to match any particular source exactly. There's no way it can. The best that can be accomplished today is an approximation that's reasonably close to the generally accepted norms. Plus or minus a few knots in speed or a few hundred feet in ceiling is fine with me. And for the most part, OFF does a great job of this.

However, the FE2's climb and ceiling are way off the values commonly available. It can only reach about 1/2 its advertised ceiling, and it takes nearly as long to reach that as the real thing apparently did to go twice as high. This is so out of keeping with the apparent accuracy of the rest of OFF's planes (that I've tried so far) that it makes me suspect that something is wrong with the FE2 itself. The FM seems to work fine for the other planes.

Same source has a photograph of the FE2b with caption "The aircraft has the more-or-less standard armament of two Lewis guns, the rear one of which was on a telescopic mounting and could be fired rearwards over the upper wing", and this is clearly shown.

That's what I gather, myself. The FE2 was a real general purpose machine that had all kinds of weapons and equipment strapped to it for different roles. But the rear gun seems to have been a very common fitting. Not all of either the b or the d had it, but the majority of them apparently did.

 

[Bletchley]

Yes, figures vary.

I have looked back at the original source data that today's publications mostly use, from the flight tests made at the Central Flying School:

120 hp Beardmore: 6500 ft in 19.5 min; 10,000 ft in 45.5 min
160 hp Beardmore: 6500 ft in 18.9 min; 10,000 ft in 39.7 min

Both tests conducted at the Central Flying School, May 1917

Season and weather changes could change the results of these flight tests (changes in atmospheric temperature and pressure), as could variations in aircraft build and engine condition, but I think that they were reasonably accurate for the time, and used 'standard' a/c with operational loads.

Source: Air Board Data sheet, dated 31st August 1917

Hope this helps.

Bletchley

 

[Rugbyfan1972]

Bullethead,

Okay, I stand corrected on the guns question, but this is the first I have heard of the fe2b having a rear gun, all the info I have seen including photo's only shows the front gun.

On a side note I may have to look at aquiring a copy of that book.

Thanks
Rugbyfan1972

 

[Polovski]

Guys I'll take another look at it after we are done with the V1.2 patch no promises at this stage.

Cheers

Pol

 

[rockmedic109]

I wonder. Can you set the mission height to 10,000' then hit warp and get there? And once there, can you maintain it?

 

[Bullethead]

Guys I'll take another look at it after we are done with the V1.2 patch no promises at this stage.

I do appreciate it. I eagerly await you telling me what I'm doing wrong .

I wonder. Can you set the mission height to 10,000' then hit warp and get there? And once there, can you maintain it?

If you warp, you WILL get above 5700'. However, the AI can't maintain this alt at all, and a human only can by flying straight and using liberal amounts of up trim and full power. AOA is very high, speed is very low, and if the human turns, the FE2 loses alt. By careful flying, you can minimize this, but the overall progress is downwards.

I just returned from a mission where this happened. Orders were to patrol over an enemy field at 7500'. I knew this was impossible, but we'd do our best. Anyway, I normally don't use warp, but I did for 5 seconds this time shortly after takeoff because I was about to have the "AI in slow planes circle into the ground" bug as my flight was trying to form up (I wasn't the leader).

When I came out of warp drive, we were about 10 miles out from the field and at 6500'. The AI leader flies with 80% throttle so of course immediately dropped down. He and the boys therefore ended up very quickly at 5500', which is about as high as you can fly with 80% power. I kept my power full and flew very carefully, so was able to hang onto 6000'. However, I was very slow and eventually had to descend to the same alt as the AI pilots to maintain speed with them.