Finding the right Zipper. (F-104)

Sbob

SOH-CM-2024
:biggrin-new:

So, I've had this love/hate view of the Starfighter and I finally took the plunge this weekend.
The F-104 looks like it came from "Buck Rodgers" but I also knew it would also be a handful to fly.
The real F-104 could fly at the Speed Of Stink and you had to keep an eye on the ASI, as long as you didn't turn. :dizzy:

There are *maybe* three payware options out there that are still available. Virtavia, Captain Sim, and possibly Cloud Nine.
So far, I've installed two of them. :wiggle:

Captain Sim- I bought this pretty cheap directly from the Capt, Sim web site. What you get has some issues BUT it also has a great selection of repaints available. Overall, this package just feels old. Like the MDLs and cockpit are almost a port-over from FS2000. You get a really nice RADAR display for the cockpit which looks convincing once you figure out how to power it up (although it really doesn't do anything, it looks neat) and a cool "pipper" type of gun sight in the HUD. You get two basic models, single and duel seat, and a nice representation of different paint schemes including bare metal. You also get one of those German "Configuaterer" programs to set up different load outs and flight dynamics. Usually, I hate these programs but this one is effective, stable, and pretty easy to run. You'll also need it if you want to try out the tandem cockpit trainer or else the virtual cockpit won't load. Over-all this is a really nice package however there are some trouble spots. The sound package tries hard but it really sounds dated. While you get the 104's howl (due to the location and shape of the engine inlets), this effect sounds REALLY binary. Goose the throttle and here comes the howl, but then its gone like an after thought. Some wrenching on the Sound.cfg file might smooth this out. :indecisiveness:
Its usually around this time you find the other trouble spot. The flight dynamics are "too good". Wrack the -104 into a nine G turn and hold it there. No problem. Set up for finals at 150 KTS and grease it on to the runway. Which is great, but its also hopelessly WRONG. Granted, M$ never considered those stubby and sharp wings of the -104 which makes them almost impossible to model, but Capt. Sim's Zipper feels more like an F-16, which it defiantly wasn't. The Starfighter was more of a "point and shoot" interceptor than a dog fighter.
Still, this package is a very good option if you're just getting into jet fighters.

Virtavia- While I'm a big fan of Virtavia/Alphasim, I had held off buying this package. This was one of their products that never really caught on with the community.
But, I was able to find the package at SimShed and dropped something in the range of $25 (to compare, the Capt. Sim package is available for $10) to buy it. To be honest, I really wanted to check out their sound folder and they said it had a really nice RADAR display (it does, but only for FSX).
In brief, its a very limited package that falls into Virtavia's "cold mashed potatoes"/"lather, rinse, repeat" slot (as sometimes happens) but the flight dynamics ARE a handful, and this is a very good thing. :wiggle:

Pull back the stick too much and you'll find that its much more effective than the air brakes. Keep pulling and the plane will tell you "Sorry, that's all for me today. You may want to review your bail-out check list". :playful:

The real plane was the scourge of 2nd Lt's and you REALLY want to bring some experience to this little beast. For takeoff, pattern work, and landing you REALLY want to add about 60 KTS to what you normally do. Set up for Final wayyyy out in the boondocks and you'll do fine. :encouragement:

Aside from the lack of repaints, my main disappointment was the sound folder. Its fine for cruising around but the characteristic "howl" is very muted when things are supposed to get spicy. Both Capt. Sim and Virtavia get the sound close (in different ways) but neither can push it over the goal line, so to speak.

One thing I want to try is dropping in the sound folder from the KBT Mitsubishi F-2 (Viper-san) and listen to how it behaves. The problem isn't in the .wav files for these two payware packages, rather its in the sound.cfg files. Maybe using the KBT sound.cfg with the other wav's will lead to a better experience?

So, typical Virtavia/Alpha quality in terms of 3DO, textures, and dynamics but a couple of weak areas for a payware title. One minor problem is that it is apparent this package was mostly built for FSX. There's a bunch of Camera Def lines in the Aircraft.cfg you can dump and you'll want to tweak the main gear contact points height from 6.50 feet to something closer to 6.00 feet.
 
Just a note on the Virt 104, there's quite a few FSX repaints that work fine on the 9 model with little tweaking, Henry William is the man to look for. Personal preference, but im not really into lots and lots of repaints, i usually select about 5 or 6 really good one's and im happy :encouragement:
 
...The real F-104 could fly at the Speed Of Stink and you had to keep an eye on the ASI, as long as you didn't turn.../QUOTE]

And it didn't have to turn, any more than an AVG P-40 had to turn with an Oscar, or an F4F or P-38 had to turn with a Zero.

Back around the early sixties the Air Force ran a test program to determine its best air to air fighter. It included the F-100, F-102 F-104 and F-106 from the active duty Air Force, and to further mix things up they brought in some Air Guard F-86Hs and some Navy F8U Crusaders. Curiously, they didn't include the F-101 (designed as an escort fighter and developed as an interceptor) or the F-105 (designed as a bomber but would have the best kill ratio over the MiGs in Vietnam of all Air Force fighters.) They ran all sorts of missions: bomber escort, bomber interception, fighter sweeps, one on one, two on one, two on two, four on two, four on four, the whole shooting match, and the F-104 came out on top in every scenario.

Nothing could escape an F-104 if it's pilot chose to engage. Nothing could catch an F-104 if its pilot chose to disengage or not to engage. Nothing could touch an F-104 in the vertical and nothing could force an F-104 into a turning contest. The Starfighter was the absolute top predator.

That surprised me but it shouldn't have. Kelly Johnson asked Korean War fighter pilots what they wanted in an air combat fighter and they said acceleration, top speed, climb rate and ceiling. Nobody asked for turn rate or turn radius, and Johnson gave them what they asked for.

Right about the time that study was done the Air Force adopted a new doctrine that held that the day of air to air combat was over and the only missions for fighters were air defense against big, non-maneuvering bombers and tactical nuclear strike. The study was considered irrelevant and filed away without being disseminated through the Air Force.

I read about this in Tom Cleaver's book "Going Downtown" (not to be confused with Jack Broughton's earlier book of the same name.)
 
Just a note on the Virt 104, there's quite a few FSX repaints that work fine on the 9 model with little tweaking, Henry William is the man to look for. Personal preference, but im not really into lots and lots of repaints, i usually select about 5 or 6 really good one's and im happy :encouragement:


Niiiice, thanks for the head's up. :wiggle:

zipshow.php


One repaint I want for the Virtavia -104 is the US SEA camo from 1964 to 1966 (?).
I think those planes flew out of Udorn or Da Nang?
 
...The real F-104 could fly at the Speed Of Stink and you had to keep an eye on the ASI, as long as you didn't turn.../QUOTE]

And it didn't have to turn, any more than an AVG P-40 had to turn with an Oscar, or an F4F or P-38 had to turn with a Zero.

Back around the early sixties the Air Force ran a test program to determine its best air to air fighter. It included the F-100, F-102 F-104 and F-106 from the active duty Air Force, and to further mix things up they brought in some Air Guard F-86Hs and some Navy F8U Crusaders. Curiously, they didn't include the F-101 (designed as an escort fighter and developed as an interceptor) or the F-105 (designed as a bomber but would have the best kill ratio over the MiGs in Vietnam of all Air Force fighters.) They ran all sorts of missions: bomber escort, bomber interception, fighter sweeps, one on one, two on one, two on two, four on two, four on four, the whole shooting match, and the F-104 came out on top in every scenario.

Nothing could escape an F-104 if it's pilot chose to engage. Nothing could catch an F-104 if its pilot chose to disengage or not to engage. Nothing could touch an F-104 in the vertical and nothing could force an F-104 into a turning contest. The Starfighter was the absolute top predator

Next to the English Electric Lightning that is of course................................
 
Next to the English Electric Lightning that is of course................................

I wonder of the F-104 and the Lightning ever went head to head in mock combat. I suspect not since the European air arms that had the 104 used it as an attack plane and the USAF never sent any zippers to Europe. I suppose a Lighting could out turn a 104 but as with other fighters that was irrelevant. Otherwise they were both outstanding performers and I suspect a match between them would've been a close run thing.

It would be fascinating to see how either of them would've done against the MiG-21. (Rather well, methinks.) Alas, the 104 was out of USAF service by the time the Air Force was running it's squadron of MiGs out at Groom Lake.
 
I wonder of the F-104 and the Lightning ever went head to head in mock combat. I suspect not since the European air arms that had the 104 used it as an attack plane and the USAF never sent any zippers to Europe. I suppose a Lighting could out turn a 104 but as with other fighters that was irrelevant. Otherwise they were both outstanding performers and I suspect a match between them would've been a close run thing.

It would be fascinating to see how either of them would've done against the MiG-21. (Rather well, methinks.) Alas, the 104 was out of USAF service by the time the Air Force was running it's squadron of MiGs out at Groom Lake.

Holland, Germany and Belgium all used the zipper in in air to air roles.

Priller
 
So, I tried doing a direct replacement of the Virtavia sound folder with the sound folder from the KBT Mitsubishi F-2 and its pretty close. :loyal:

If you don't have the KBT F-2 installed, for Pete's sake, WHY?? The plane itself is one of the best experiences going for FS9. Get it into some high G's or really knock it around and this plane will reward you. :wiggle: Its also easy to replace stuff in Kirk's Viper. I use the KBT .air file and , again, the sound folder for my Block 30+ ("wide mouth") Vipers.

One thing you may notice with the F-2 sound folder, there are several "sound.cfg" files in there. Do NOT delete or modify anything that isn't named sound.cfg.
The extra .cfg files do something... :encouragement:

The only things I changed was to swap in the gear, flaps, and overspeed/stall* wavs from the Virtavia sound folder and copied those sections into the aircraft.cfg sections.
This was mostly to back-date the sounds to something more appropriate to a 1960's fighter (beeps and buzzes).

This new sound folder should also work well with the Capt. Sim -104.



*For the purists, you're right. There really shouldn't be stall or overspeed alarms and the gear and flaps should be pretty quiet.
This is just a preference on my part, I find the extra sounds give me a lot more information in terms of what's going on.
 
I wonder of the F-104 and the Lightning ever went head to head in mock combat. I suspect not since the European air arms that had the 104 used it as an attack plane and the USAF never sent any zippers to Europe. I suppose a Lighting could out turn a 104 but as with other fighters that was irrelevant. Otherwise they were both outstanding performers and I suspect a match between them would've been a close run thing.

It would be fascinating to see how either of them would've done against the MiG-21. (Rather well, methinks.) Alas, the 104 was out of USAF service by the time the Air Force was running it's squadron of MiGs out at Groom Lake.

Yes they did.
A retired Lightning/Jaguar driver friend told me that they went up against Italian F-104's with Lightning F.3's.He flew both the F.3 and the F-104.
The Lightning could out turn and had a better rate of climb than the F-104,acceleration was about the same for both,he said both the F-104 and the F.3 were pretty well matched evenly for out and out speed,the F-104 couldn't pull away,the F.3
couldn't gain.
He also said that the Lightning boys always tried to get the F-104's into a turning fight,that was where the F-104 hadn't a hope,in his opinion,the F-104's best tactic was not to play ball and "boot the hell out of it"the Lightning couldn't gain on it.

As he put it:
"I can do better than that Miggs - I've actually flown one.The straight line acceleration was about the same as a Lightning F3, but with those little wings it didn't turn as well. In all our 1v1 scraps with an Italian outfit the aim was to force them into a turning fight where it didn't have a hope.
If they (sensibly in my opinion) decided not to play that ball and boot the hell out of it we couldn't gain on them."
 
...but then.

Meanwhile, something hosed my Arrcab (2.6) install. :banghead:

I was doing carrier traps on Thanksgiving with no issues and Arrcab was running fine.
Now, Arrcab starts and freezes with a message that it isn't connecting to FSIUP, which is running fine. :dizzy:

So, I've deleted my Capt. Sim F-104 install along with its config program. This is, so far, the most likely culprit.
The only other thing that went wonky recently was a MAIW install I wanted to check out. The package said it was for FS9 but I suspect it was for FSX.
I couldn't even start FS, so I dumped all of those files and everything went back to playing nice.

Worst case, I have some older cloned drives and can swap them back in for testing or else move my (recent) known good files to an older clone.

More later.

:banghead:
 
Yes they did.
A retired Lightning/Jaguar driver friend told me that they went up against Italian F-104's with Lightning F.3's.He flew both the F.3 and the F-104.
The Lightning could out turn and had a better rate of climb than the F-104,acceleration was about the same for both,he said both the F-104 and the F.3 were pretty well matched evenly for out and out speed,the F-104 couldn't pull away,the F.3
couldn't gain.
He also said that the Lightning boys always tried to get the F-104's into a turning fight,that was where the F-104 hadn't a hope,in his opinion,the F-104's best tactic was not to play ball and "boot the hell out of it"the Lightning couldn't gain on it.

As he put it:
"I can do better than that Miggs - I've actually flown one.The straight line acceleration was about the same as a Lightning F3, but with those little wings it didn't turn as well. In all our 1v1 scraps with an Italian outfit the aim was to force them into a turning fight where it didn't have a hope.
If they (sensibly in my opinion) decided not to play that ball and boot the hell out of it we couldn't gain on them."

Very interesting! Thanks!

The Italian F-104S was the hottest zipper. An interesting thing about the US developing advanced combat aircraft is how allies would still be working on a plane when the US would be on to the next big thing. So the most advanced versions of American planes were sometimes operated by allies and not the US. The Italians had the apex zipper, the Canadians built the most advanced F-86 Sabres, the Israelis had the most developed F-4 Phantoms, some NATO countries had the F-5E in regular service, and I think there were others that I can't recall right now.
 
It's still possible to get the payware Cloud9 F104, from fsdt website here -----> https://www.fsdreamteam.com/products_cloud9.html

You'll need to download the standalone addon manager program too

Ttfn

Pete

Wrong; see these threads at fsdreamteam support forums:
https://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,24671.msg163425.html#msg163425
https://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,23187.0.html

An interesting freeware option, brought to you by one of the developers behind Cloud9, if I am not mistaken, and do forgive me if I am wrong:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/starfighter/files/

Cheers!
 
Wrong; see these threads at fsdreamteam support forums:
https://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,24671.msg163425.html#msg163425
https://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,23187.0.html

An interesting freeware option, brought to you by one of the developers behind Cloud9, if I am not mistaken, and do forgive me if I am wrong:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/starfighter/files/

Cheers!

Good answer , Wolfebee that sound right.... and thx for the link.... it does look like c9's one.

On another topic what the best AB FX for the captainsim starfigher.


Cheers mav
 
Good answer , Wolfebee that sound right.... and thx for the link.... it does look like c9's one.
On another topic what the best AB FX for the captainsim starfigher.
Cheers mav

Yes, it is. I grabbed a copy and somewhere in the documentation I saw that it is indeed a part of the Cloud 9 package.

Nice to have it! The S-model was the zippiest sipper of all!
 
Good answer , Wolfebee that sound right.... and thx for the link.... it does look like c9's one.

On another topic what the best AB FX for the captainsim starfigher.


Cheers mav

dunno mav, how about giving the freeware John Stinstrom's Grosseto AB, a try... available at flightsim / avsim fslib...

Cheers!
 
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