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The Staff of SOH
Free French Spitfire MkII riddle...
- Thread starter ndicki
- Start date
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
It could well be blue - both colours were commonly used. As the only photos we have are in black-and-white, it's not easy! I'm not sure it looks quite dark enough to be blue... Keep trying - your point is valid, but it isn't what I'm waiting for! The photos I'm going by were taken at Turnhouse in late 1941/early 1942.
Led Zeppelin
Charter Member
there is a Spit MkV 'trappe de visite avec un bossage pour la canon' on the wing?
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
No - that's the wheel bulge. Keep trying! The mistake does not concern the model, only the skin. You might find it useful to research profiles of this one on the Internet. They've all made what I consider to be the same erroneous assumption, including Revell for their 1/32nd scale kit, which is actually half-finished on the sideboard here...
greycap.raf
Charter Member
Could it be the simple fact that it's usually portrayed in Temperate Land Scheme while yours is finished in Day Fighter Scheme? The latter is correct for the date but presumably many squadrons hadn't changed the schemes by then which is probably the reason for that erroneous assumption.
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
I'm seeing P7840 marked as GW-E
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
Rene is right - most profiles show it in the Temperate Land Scheme. The Day Fighter Scheme was introduced in early-mid August 1941 (too lazy to look up the precise date and AMO) and if 340 were still operating aircraft in the Temperate Land Scheme in December 1941, they were the last squadron in the RAF to be doing so. Also, their aircraft came from a number of different squadrons - some from 121, this one from 64, others from 610, and so on. They will not all have neglected to repaint them! So we have to assume that they were effectively painted grey and green in the Day Fighter Scheme.
One final clincher - in that well-known photograph, look at the fuselage bands. By mid-1941, they were Sky, not Sky Blue as they tended to be in late 1940. That means that they effectively disappeared on the underside of the aircraft, also painted Sky. These do not - they show up clearly as being paler than the underside of the aircraft - correctly so for the Day Fighter Scheme where the Sky band is painted on the Medium Sea Grey underside.
I rest my case!
The Major has spotted something I hadn't - well done! All the profiles I've seen show it as GW-Z. The service records do not mention its individual letter at all, and on the photo we all know, the wingtip masks the entire central part of the letter, leaving only the upper and lower bars visible. Which means that it might indeed have been GW-E instead.
Further research needed here...
One final clincher - in that well-known photograph, look at the fuselage bands. By mid-1941, they were Sky, not Sky Blue as they tended to be in late 1940. That means that they effectively disappeared on the underside of the aircraft, also painted Sky. These do not - they show up clearly as being paler than the underside of the aircraft - correctly so for the Day Fighter Scheme where the Sky band is painted on the Medium Sea Grey underside.
I rest my case!
The Major has spotted something I hadn't - well done! All the profiles I've seen show it as GW-Z. The service records do not mention its individual letter at all, and on the photo we all know, the wingtip masks the entire central part of the letter, leaving only the upper and lower bars visible. Which means that it might indeed have been GW-E instead.
Further research needed here...
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
The Belfast Telegraph 'Spifire Fund'
The Supermarine Spitfire is probably the most legendary aircraft of the Second World War. Together with the Hawker Hurricane, it provided the strength of Fighter Command in the Battle of Britain in 1940. Although there were twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires the elegant lines of the Spitfire meant that it was much more popular in the public eye.
When the suggestion of individuals, towns, businesses or other bodies presenting aircraft to the Royal Air Force came up, the Spitfire was an obvious choice as a presentation aircraft, such was its popularity. The concept of presenting aircraft was not new as it had been done in the First World War and the tradition of presenting weapons or equipment to fighting men was even older. Most of the First World War presentations were of single aircraft, although some donors provided the cash for two or three but the most generous donor of all was the Nizam of Hyderabad, the leader of one of India’s princely states and, therefore, not a subject of the British Empire. His Excellency provided the funds for an entire squadron of Airco DH 9As.
A subsequent enquiry from the Nizam about ‘his’ squadron led to a decision to rename No. 110 Squadron as No. 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron. This had been the first squadron to operate the DH 9A. Lord Beaverbrook, who was in charge of aircraft production, thought the idea of presentation aircraft was one that would inspire people throughout the country and proposed a scheme by which groups, or even individuals, could ‘buy’ a Spitfire for RAF Fighter Command. Beaverbrook set the cost of a Spitfire at £5,000 and any group or individual raising this sum would have the right to have a Spitfire named for them. In the case of towns or cities the aircraft would carry the name of the town or city that had raised the money. In fact, Beaverbrook set the price low; it cost about £12,000 to produce a Spitfire but it was believed that the lower figure would be a target that more people would see as achievable.
It was natural that Northern Ireland should become involved in the Spitfire fund. The lead was taken by one of Northern Ireland’s newspapers, the Belfast Telegraph, and the fund became known as the Belfast Telegraph Fund. This caught the imagination of the public and eventually fifteen Spitfires bore names that represented the people of Northern Ireland who had raised the money to pay for them.
The Belfast Telegraph Spitfires were among the first of the presentation Spitfires and the very first Northern Ireland-funded Spitfire was paid for by the citizens of County Londonderry and thus bore that county’s name. A later Belfast Telegraph machine paid for by the city of Londonderry was named ‘City of Derry’. ‘Londonderry’ was followed by ‘Belfast’ and then by ‘Harlandic’, also from Belfast. These carried consecutive serial numbers: P7683, 7684 and 7685. Their presentation names were painted on the engine cover in yellow letters four inches high, as was the case with most such planes.
The other Belfast Telegraph Spitfires were:
P7823 DOWN
P7832 ENNISKILLEN
P7833 PORTADOWN
P7834 MID ULSTER
P7835 BALLYMENA
P7838 FERMANAGH
P7839 CITY OF DERRY
P7840 MOUNTAINS OF MOURNE
P7841 LARNE
P7842 BANGOR
P7843 ALDERGROVE
P7849 ARMAGH
All these machines were Spitfire Mark IIs, fitted with a 1,175 HP Rolls-Royce Merlin XII engine and built at the new Castle Bromwich factory at Birmingham. This version of the Spitfire had a top speed of 370 mph and could reach a height of 32,800 feet. Armament was eight Browning .303-inch machine guns. However, development was rapid in fighter aircraft at this time and a new version of the Spitfire, the Mark V, began to replace the Mark II in early-1941.
Of the Belfast Telegraph Spitfires, most were lost through damage in action or crashes and, by 1944, only FERMANAGH was still in use. By then it had long been relegated to a training role with an Operational Training Unit (OTU) and to air sea rescue (ASR) duties. During their short service lives the Spitfires helped to defend Britain against German bombing attacks and also took the battle to the continent with raids on German bases in France. They shot down a number of German aircraft and were flown by a wide range of RAF personnel with at least one of them flying with a Polish squadron.
The Supermarine Spitfire is probably the most legendary aircraft of the Second World War. Together with the Hawker Hurricane, it provided the strength of Fighter Command in the Battle of Britain in 1940. Although there were twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires the elegant lines of the Spitfire meant that it was much more popular in the public eye.
When the suggestion of individuals, towns, businesses or other bodies presenting aircraft to the Royal Air Force came up, the Spitfire was an obvious choice as a presentation aircraft, such was its popularity. The concept of presenting aircraft was not new as it had been done in the First World War and the tradition of presenting weapons or equipment to fighting men was even older. Most of the First World War presentations were of single aircraft, although some donors provided the cash for two or three but the most generous donor of all was the Nizam of Hyderabad, the leader of one of India’s princely states and, therefore, not a subject of the British Empire. His Excellency provided the funds for an entire squadron of Airco DH 9As.
A subsequent enquiry from the Nizam about ‘his’ squadron led to a decision to rename No. 110 Squadron as No. 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron. This had been the first squadron to operate the DH 9A. Lord Beaverbrook, who was in charge of aircraft production, thought the idea of presentation aircraft was one that would inspire people throughout the country and proposed a scheme by which groups, or even individuals, could ‘buy’ a Spitfire for RAF Fighter Command. Beaverbrook set the cost of a Spitfire at £5,000 and any group or individual raising this sum would have the right to have a Spitfire named for them. In the case of towns or cities the aircraft would carry the name of the town or city that had raised the money. In fact, Beaverbrook set the price low; it cost about £12,000 to produce a Spitfire but it was believed that the lower figure would be a target that more people would see as achievable.
It was natural that Northern Ireland should become involved in the Spitfire fund. The lead was taken by one of Northern Ireland’s newspapers, the Belfast Telegraph, and the fund became known as the Belfast Telegraph Fund. This caught the imagination of the public and eventually fifteen Spitfires bore names that represented the people of Northern Ireland who had raised the money to pay for them.
The Belfast Telegraph Spitfires were among the first of the presentation Spitfires and the very first Northern Ireland-funded Spitfire was paid for by the citizens of County Londonderry and thus bore that county’s name. A later Belfast Telegraph machine paid for by the city of Londonderry was named ‘City of Derry’. ‘Londonderry’ was followed by ‘Belfast’ and then by ‘Harlandic’, also from Belfast. These carried consecutive serial numbers: P7683, 7684 and 7685. Their presentation names were painted on the engine cover in yellow letters four inches high, as was the case with most such planes.
The other Belfast Telegraph Spitfires were:
P7823 DOWN
P7832 ENNISKILLEN
P7833 PORTADOWN
P7834 MID ULSTER
P7835 BALLYMENA
P7838 FERMANAGH
P7839 CITY OF DERRY
P7840 MOUNTAINS OF MOURNE
P7841 LARNE
P7842 BANGOR
P7843 ALDERGROVE
P7849 ARMAGH
All these machines were Spitfire Mark IIs, fitted with a 1,175 HP Rolls-Royce Merlin XII engine and built at the new Castle Bromwich factory at Birmingham. This version of the Spitfire had a top speed of 370 mph and could reach a height of 32,800 feet. Armament was eight Browning .303-inch machine guns. However, development was rapid in fighter aircraft at this time and a new version of the Spitfire, the Mark V, began to replace the Mark II in early-1941.
Of the Belfast Telegraph Spitfires, most were lost through damage in action or crashes and, by 1944, only FERMANAGH was still in use. By then it had long been relegated to a training role with an Operational Training Unit (OTU) and to air sea rescue (ASR) duties. During their short service lives the Spitfires helped to defend Britain against German bombing attacks and also took the battle to the continent with raids on German bases in France. They shot down a number of German aircraft and were flown by a wide range of RAF personnel with at least one of them flying with a Polish squadron.
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
P7840 Operational History:
8MU 9-1-41
64S 14-2-41 (first flown with the 64th by Sgt Thornber)
340S 10-12-41
53OTU K9891 (Llandow CE) took off in coarse pitch and struck P7840 Llanbedr CAC 1-4-42
ASTE CGS 25-9-42
CE 2-11-44
8MU 9-1-41
64S 14-2-41 (first flown with the 64th by Sgt Thornber)
340S 10-12-41
53OTU K9891 (Llandow CE) took off in coarse pitch and struck P7840 Llanbedr CAC 1-4-42
ASTE CGS 25-9-42
CE 2-11-44
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
Yes, I always think it's nice to add the history surrounding any aircraft we create with our virtual model building. :salute:
dewoitine
SOH-CM-2025
Just a photo for youView attachment 2653
Regards
Regards
dewoitine
SOH-CM-2025
New site for the color View attachment 2754View attachment 2755View attachment 2756View attachment 2757
free http://batfredland.free/VSQN340PP.htm
340 squadron
free http://batfredland.free/VSQN340PP.htm
340 squadron
dewoitine
SOH-CM-2025
Yes it is "340 squadron" and http://www.insignesaviation.com/ where you have the insign FAFL with the blue color.