Freeware Development and Rivet Counters

GarryJSmith

GarryJSmith

Charter Member
Unfortunately since the beginning of my association with FlightSim and graphics, back in 1998, I have seen the rivet counters hammer freeware developers with their expectations of perfection (in their eyes). I have seen many painters, model makers, and scenery designers come and go and a large volume ultimately give up due to the public floggings in forums by these rivet counters.

Very rarely do the FREEWARE user even bother to acknowledge or appreciate the fact that they are getting others peoples hard efforts for FREE. There is an almost a pervasive outlook in the simming community that we are ENTITLED to get FREE stuff and ENTITLED to critique or even slander those that give us the free stuff.

Basically we seem to have lost the concept of FREEWARE being a PRIVILAGE that it is shared with us.

Very very rare to ever see - "WOW - thanks mate for sharing this with me" from the simming community. Yes, sometimes, what some could class as junk, is published - but that junk is often many hard hours of slogging with unfamiliar tools, learning and effort and often some personal financial costs by the developer and he/she wants to share that time and effort with others. Knock or critique too hard and the enthusiasm disappears and we possible loose another budding developer.

This Rivet Counter mindset and the loss of the concept of a PRIVILAGE that freeware is being shared with us is harming our most precious simming resource. Imagine simming with only payware products - the contribution of freeware developers have kept simming alive since its inception - many sites exist only because of the volume of freeware that is published by amateur developers and shared with us because they choose to do so.

There is a fine line between critique and guidance - many developers appreciate guidance but disdain critiques that are unwarranted, ignorant, or downright malicious in content.

In a nutshell, lets show some appreciation every now and again for what we get for free from a plethora of developers - encourage the budding developer - everyone starts somewhere on the quality scale and improves with guidance and appreciation - all we have to do is put in a little time for constructive feedback and support and we all win.

And finally to the Rivet Counters - if you don't like it - just don't use it - or even better - do a better rendition yourself and share it with us.
 
Well said, Garry. As I have said before, I greatly appreciate the efforts of all the modelers, painters and scenery makers that bless us with the products of their hard work. And I will continue to do so. Thank you VERY MUCH to all of you, both individually and collectively.

LA

NOTE: Also posted in the Dark Side forum.
 
Unfortunately the problem exists in many hobbies Garry. I found that when I was in the model railway hobby just about every second person was a river counter. I was then, and still am now if a developer/modelmaker was able to produce a line that looked like and felt like rivets.

My attitude then and still is the same as yours. Many a person was told that if you don't like it don't buy it, no skin off my nose.
 
Concur with the outlook that there has been, and will always be, rivet counters - however, we do not have to tolerate abuse from them.

As mentioned, it is hard to draw a line between abuse and constructive critique - but if it is obviously abuse then we as a community should challenge the poster to justify there expertise which warranted the critique and invite them to do the job better and share with us.

Since starting this thread several PM's and e-mails have come through from those that have given up on providing Freeware in the recent past because of rivet counters - surprisingly more than we would think and that is just from SOH patrons. Every one that we loose is a loss of a contributor to our simming hobby. Who knows what little nuggets of excellence we are now missing out on........

I know, from many years of experience, that you will never convince a rivet counter that their perspective is "unique" or unwarranted - particularly as they seem to enjoy the fame and controversy of their threads, but we can inform them that their abuse is unacceptable to the community by continuing to support/defend the FREEWARE developers against the rivet counters outlandish posts.

Not on an "Anti Rivet Counter" warpath here - just disappointed that we are loosing Freeware developers to the ramblings of the rivet counters professing expertise or demanding Pro Quality from Freeware developers.

Regards - happy simming for us all.​
 
I've been in the CFS and FS world since '98 as well and there's always been rivet counters. Usually if invited to do a better job themselves, they shut up or start backpedalling. A few pony up and and become contributors as well. I did a lot of CFS paints years ago and I've done a few FS paints that interested me as well. One thing that there never seems to be enough of is telling a painter or developer thanks for their efforts.

Another thing that has always chapped my butt is the new guy just starting out who gets their initial efforts ripped to shreds all in the name of criticism. Quite a few have packed it all up never to be seen again. And these are the guys that we as a community need to be encouraging to learn the art. I've seen some pretty atrocious first efforts, but always have a word of encouragement for the new guys. My first efforts weren't that great either.

Just wanted to add that I don't read every post here at SOH, but I do love to rip a rivet counter a new one when I do catch them at it.
 
I'm an impulse freeware user; if I read about or see an airplane that catches my fancy I'll look for a freeware version first. About 95% of the time I'll download one and take it for a test flight to see if I can handle the airplane!

Sure, I'll make some Panel tweaks with FS Panel Studio to suit my personal tastes. I might fiddle with Contact Points, add a light or two (the Default; no Shockwave for me), and perhaps twist up the
power_scalar and thrust_scalar to give the airplane a little boost.

I'm just damn glad someone out there had the same interests as me, who is talented enough to create the entire airplane from scratch, and has given me hours of enjoyment in the Sim.

The list of names stretches across the versions; Milton, GarryJSmith, Matt Wynn, SteveB... Gladden, Ito, Copeley, Choate, Grant. Malenimi, Lucarini, Gibson, Copeland... ALL of them deserve our thanks and gratitude.

:salute: :applause::redfire:
 
I wasn't initially going to say anything here, but after reading this thread, I had to jump in and give kudos to all of the developers and repainters who's work I have enjoyed over the years. There are so many I can't count. If I download someone's work and I like it, I almost always thank them here in the forums, send a PM, or both. If something doesn't work for me... I let it go at that... Simple enough.

You're right about the rivet counters, Willy. Most of them will find something to nit pick about with someone else's work but when it comes right down to the fact of the matter... 95% of those who count rivets couldn't do better. Then, when a thoughtless comment is made about the item in question, the "rivet counter" either fails to realize the amount of time and effort involved in the creation of the freeware, or refuses to acknowledge it. If I were a talented freeware artist such as Garry and Steve, and someone made a derogatory remark about my work, I would have reacted in the same manor. :ipepsi2:

BB686:USA-flag:
 
Rivet Counters... excellent alternatives to the standard Q-Target :icon_lol:

but yeah... rivet counters annoy me, and those over-fussed with the details in general, "It should be THIS colour not THAT colour" had that a few times where i've just replied "oh yeah? have you ever seen anything weather uniformly?" and they've walked off, although if they had responded i'd likely end up jabbing them just below the solarplexus for good measure along with a nice volley of swearing...

... But at times they can be of help... no not as targets on a range like my previous... but in getting certain things at least 'feeling' right, which is what i aim for... Feel as opposed to a direct out and out copy... most of my colours i have in Photoshop have been a result of little strips of colour compared to the aircraft (pantone books if you must get technical), and even then i've blended and adjusted the tones a bit more by eye to give a balance... i can be a bit nitpicky but as long as it at least Looks and Flies right i'm happy... and don't go saying "hey this line is 2" too far aft" etc...
 
Very nicely put Garry.
My standard response to folks who only put down and never lift up is to ask for some of their excellent work for me to look at so that I can compare and "learn from the best" .......
This usually clarifies things quite quickly. Because with very very few exceptions these guys have never published anything.

Now don't get me wrong here, something that can easily happen with the written word vs the spoken one, you don't need to have the track record of a Garry Smith or Milton Shupe before you can voice an opinion. But I will take suggestions to do one thing or another much easier from folks with a long resume than from some guy with zip-zilch-nada.

As mentioned earlier quite often things are however not meant as mean as they may be understood. The written word lacks many of the qualities of the spoken conversation. Even amongst native English speakers misunderstandings happen quite frequently.
Add in a few bad experiences in the past and a less than firm soul may decide to pack it up and leave.

My experience overall with FS has been a pleasure. Largely because of the work of folks who devote their own time , skills and resources to enhance a cheap product released by the largest software developer in the world. So much so that the end result is nothing at all like the box I purchased.
And for that reason alone I would never let one or two bad apples spoil the barrel. Get rid of them....
as a community and support those who support our collective hobby.

Cheers
Stefan
 
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