Future watermasks, lines, landclass and mesh

R

rhumbaflappy

Charter Member
Hi all.

With my mesh and watermasks loaded, and the defaults deactivated as I recommend. That leaves a question as to how terrain packages can be produced in the future, to take advantage of this arrangement.


Here's what I recommend:

In FS9 and FSX each LOD5 area has it's own data separated into files and folders that correspond to LOD5 sized areas. SDC's European scenery has borrowed this idea, and it is a good one.

Landclass, waterclass, watermasking, VTP lines and polys, and LOD9 mesh can all be crafted into LOD5-sized packages to enhance areas of interest. Borrowing FS9's naming convention, we can have packages that contain these elements, and the endusers will then know what areas they are dealing with. Smaller patches or more refined mesh can also go into these folders, and maintain a sense of order in the process.

We've got until 2015, or a bit longer to enjoy CFS2 using MS' Windows7, Vista, or XP. After that????? But 6 more years of CFS2 should bring out a few designers.

I don't know if there will be a CFS4. In a more international world, it's hard to design a combat sim that won't insult or demean a nation or culture. So let's enjoy and improve what we have... in the time we have.

Dick
 
Hi Dick

I've just finish to download le last dem8 zip,not installed yet,all these new big packs need some quite moment to install them ,I've installed the mask but desactived them for the moment ....I will select with tmf the bgls I will use that will depend of the theatre.....all these need some time to be digested ,but this watermasks addon is the futur of cfs2 that will take time to realize ,some lod 5 sized scenery,I don't know if existe a automatised way to to draw the vtp1 lines...there is always the old hand method that stay sure but slow ,last september I 've started a work on the channel french side and the dover area ,on the France i've drawed some coastlines and some thousand kms of roads in the Cotentin Normandy area ,begin the Seine ,the area is between two fs lod5, here in the pics ,lod5 called 948140 and 947140 ,that give an idea to the work that will be done.... ,but it's the way ... dealing with the excludes ,it's stay possible to insert some small sceneries in this new world .
For 2015 that could be possible ....... :d

JP
 
2015

What is supposed to happen in 2015? the end of the world?

What are the implications for this date for CFS2? I don't understand?

thanks

PS: Finally Gibraltar is starting to look the way it should!
 
In about 2015, a new version of windows will arrive that may spell the doom of backward conmpatibility for DirectX7 programs... among which is CFS2.
 
Hi Jean.

There is a path for a more automated way to produce the lines, and that is what SDC developed using BLN files from SBuilder, and then converting them for use in Ground2K.

Before SDC abandoned his work, he was developing a program to directly make lines from BLN files, bypassing Ground2k. The Aces had ARCGIS routines ( I believe ) that took lines and made the BGLs directly.

Unfortunately, Sander stopped his involvement with CFS2.

If a way can be made to produce lines from maps or data, then we can have BLN files made that can be converted to Ground2k 'LWM' files.

Dick
 
Hi Jean.

To further clarify my thinking about organizing terrain addons..,

For FS9, Ultimate Terrain subdivided their HP ( watermasks ) into 1/4 LOD5 areas... basically LOD6-sized. And subdivided their roads and rails into 1/64 LOD5... LOD8-sized areas.

The naming for HP files was like HP950150A.bgl, HP950150B.bgl, HP950150C.bgl, HP950150D.bgl

A | B
-----
C | D

This seems like a good idea to me. I did a similar thing for my LOD2 sized wartermasks.

This changed for lines. They used LOD8 cells to define their lines. Cells are numbered 0-63.

For the roads it was like RD950150-0000.bgl ( start position 0, end position 0 covering 1 LOD8 cell )... RL950150-2123.bgl ( start position 21, end position 23 covering 3 LOD8 cells ) .

I'm not actually recommending that naming convention, but as you can see, Ultimate Terrain had a LOT of separate files for a single LOD5 area... each sliced neatly by LOD8 cells for lines. While ground2k cannot slice neatlly, you can make file slightly larger than LOD8, then decompile them through LWMViewer, alter the ASM files to compile only the exact cell, and recompile. So LOD8-only compilation is very possible, and probably desired.

An Ultimate terrain folder contains over 1000 bgls! And the sim sorts them out nicely. So that method works. The only caution is that the more lines we have, the more framerate taxing, because of the texture calls. Watermasking doesn't do this so much, as there are no textures in those files.

The problem would be to get your image sources, or BLN files to be arranged as LOD8-sized or slightly larger.

This is all just a suggestion. But if we confine our terrain packages to LOD5 naming, with 'subnames' as fractions of the LOD5, or even better as exact LOD8s, then we'd all know what areas the package covers. It's just a matter of slicing the files neatly and naming them with some organization. In this case, a package could be just a few LOD8 cells, but still could go into a "universal" LOD5 folder, that other developers could still use.

We could just as easily use FSX naming conventions and organization.

They are ordered by our LOD2-sized folders ( "CST" in CFS2 ), and LOD5-sized files... which could be further sliced to logical fractions of LOD5-sizes or LOD8s like Ultimate Terrain.

And I like this idea of having folders of the LOD2 size to hold the BGLs. It's just a lot more organised.

If everyone kept to LOD8-sized files ( or neat multiples of LOD8s ), with LOD5 naming ( and LOD8 subnames ) we could combine different developers work into the same "CST" folders without stepping on each others toes too much. :)

The watermasks I made are meant to be overwritten by better files... I 'm just hoping for an organised way of doing this.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In the next few weeks I'd like to have a web utility to grab Google map images of a convienient LOD8 size for Ground2K... the images would most likely have to be a bit larger than LOD8... but Ground2K has red border lines to show us the exact extents of the display. That would solve one problem.

Luis Sa has a similar solution:

http://www.ptsim.com/sbuilder/gmaps.htm

But I'm going to try to figure the math to get the display about LOD8 in size.

++++++++++++++++

Sander grabbed his water masking from FS9 as an image of the LOD5-sized 'HP' BGL, then converted it to a vector, then built a Ground2K LWM file, then compiled it.

He could easily have decompiled the FS9 watermasks with LWMViewer, converted the ASM files to CFS2 waterpolys with ConvCFS2, and had his files. There may be some problem with the direct conversion of Microsoft's polys, but if they are freeware, for another non-competing Microsoft program, I'm not seeing much of a difference from what Sander did.

Sander also used SBuilder to decompile road and rail lines as BLN files, and then build LWM files for Ground2K to recompile as CFS2 lines. I think he could have done this with shores as well. Again, was this all legal and ethical? Microsoft has not commented on it. As long as it's freeware and for a non-competing Microsoft product, I would assume they don't mind, but I'm not a lawyer.

Taking Ultimate Terrain polys or lines in this manner most probably would raise a problem! I don't think this would be ethical. Alan had to buy his data, and I don't think he'd like it copied. A developer could ask him... but I did ask if he would consider releasing a CFS2 version of just his water, and I never recieved a reply... and that means NO to me. It may be Alan was licensed for only FS9 usage, and a CFS2 version would violate his agreements. You could make conversions for your use, using LWMViewer, or SBuilder/CFS2AutoCoast/Ground2K... but I wouldn't distribute them!

The idea of Google images or Windows Live images as a background image has never been challenged by them. With a little manipulation, map images could be auto-processed by slartibartfast into waterpolys. ( Using photoshop you could fill everything but water with white, and make the water black, and fill in skips in the water where text or lines crossed... ).

Shorelines can be made from Slartibartfast, but I think it would be a lot of work to convert them to usable BLN files for processing with Ground2K... better to just draw them on a background image. Roads are also just better drawn.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Christian Fumey lost the old VB6 code that dealt with CFS2 lines and water. :( That's why it was stopped in his program. And bluntly, there are only a very few developers that work in CFS2 ( certainly less than 10 worldwide ). So there was never a big demand for including it.

SBuilder for FS9 uses SCASM... and SCASM code was never made to handle CFS2 masking, lines and polys. This is because ther was never an SDK released for it, and I'm sure SCASM's author never got more than one request to include it ( my request ).

SBuilderX is just for FSX. We could bug Luis for a SBuilderCFS2, but I don't think this would interest him. I don't think he owns CFS2, and may not approve blowing things up as we do.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

So that's the future as I see it. We can try to keep some organization, maybe develop some simple means of grabbing background images of a logical size. We can keep our eyes open for sources of decent line data.

We can draw lines in SBuilder, and export them to Ground2k using Sander's techniques, and make watermasks using either slartibartfast , SBuilder, or Ground2K,

Currently, Sander's line techniques are the best available.

Dick
 
Hi all
End of the world ? wich world ? the end of one could be the begin of a new one we leave today with some disagrement in our real life a kind of this that for some aspect was needed for our mother hearth....
I think the mayas had make some math mistake in their previous if the date was for their own End of the World they've missed it for some centuries ,large as Level of Time :d
:focus:
i agree about that we need to be organized in ours sceneries size ,Lod 8 seem a good unit of size measure for a g2k made sceneries and lod6 seem be a human size for who want make some biggest old hand drawed project as the current WiP i'm working on ,for example about the channel project I could make some lod 6 sized area around the channel for the France and GB sides ,concerning the interesting parts for our combatflightsim,and to add later news to make a complete lod 5.
since I've begin to work with g2k my unit of measure was a srtm area size: 1 degre x 1 degre that it's more than lod8 but less than lod 6 size ,but some of my current work are +- near of the lod 6 size ,to resume how I see that: x lod 8 (1, 2, etc..) for some particulary sites with a upper level of vtp1 lines density and x lod 6 for some the biggest background regional areas and a lower vtp1 line density that could be later updated on with some new lod8 sized sceneries centred around some site like port airfield target etc....
About the different way to automatize the process to draw vtp1 lines i think it could not possible to make it with the kind of map i use to make my lines,I use the Tex lib Terry castaneda us army's series for the Europe and the North africa (there are series for all the part of the world Korea philippine etc.... ,1959 dated with forties's source ,nearest accurate for our historical subject,no higways no marinas etc... ,they are also 1* x 1* or 1,5*x 1,5* sized then scaled on their srtm and swdb that can give some good psp files with these three maps as layers they give very accurate big background bmp to work with g2k easely modulable in different level of opacity in psp depend if you need draw the roads or the coast ( 1959 us army map ) or put the river in the center of the deep valley ( the srtm.bmp and the swdb ).i know it's not the fastest way but i find it interesting ....

Here a pics as example ,1*x 1*, some lod8 areas ....the map and the result on the ground, this scenery will go with Gibraltar ;) the rocky place where all has begun ........:spider:.....:toilet:

JP
 
Interesting reading.
rhumbaflappy said:
......
Sander grabbed his water masking from FS9 as an image of the LOD5-sized 'HP' BGL, then converted it to a vector, then built a Ground2K LWM file, then compiled it.

He could easily have decompiled the FS9 watermasks with LWMViewer, converted the ASM files to CFS2 waterpolys with ConvCFS2, and had his files. There may be some problem with the direct conversion of Microsoft's polys, ........
Click to expand...
Yes there were problems with direct conversion: no matter what I did, I could not get the FS9 shorelines (HL*.bgl) to convert like the roads/rivers thought SBX or BLN; Ground2k just could not handle the complexity of that data for some reason. Off course I could convert just the LWM masks with ConvCFS2, but there was no way to create 100% matching shorelines as the FS8/9 LWM's consist of little LOD13 blocks of data, not complete polylines.... to re-assemble those little blocks as polylines for shorelines would be an absolute nightmare.
 
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