Gauge Question

[Mick]

I have a question about gauges. It relates to an aircraft that David and I are working on.

Since neither of us are helicopter experts, we're deriving our flight model from one that's known to work well, making the required changes to adapt it to the new model. So far, so good, except for one annoying little glitch.

The flight model we started with is from a single piston engined aircraft, and our model is of a twin. On the panel we have all the usual engine instruments paired up. The necessary edits were made to the engine sections of the aircraft.cfg file so that the engines start in sequence (rather than simultaneously) and the start-up smoke comes from the engines' separate exhaust stacks at the proper times, so FS9 "knows" that the aircraft is a twin.

To replace each single engine instrument I found paired instruments meant for twin engine use. For example, for the tachometers I found gauges with names like WhizzerRPM1 & WhizzerRPM2, or WhateverRPM & WhateverRPM_001 and the like.

Here's the thing - they both report the status of engine1. I expected that they were programmed to respond to separate engines, so that, for example, WhizzerRPM1 would report for engine1 and WhizzerRPM2 would report for engine 2, but nooooo - they both respond to engine1.

I thought they would do this automatically, as per their internal programming, and since I can find nothing in the aircraft.cfg file or the Air file that would allow this to be changed, that would seem to confirm the idea that they should do it on their own. But they don't.

Can someone tell me how to get the gauges to report on engine2

It's not critical since the engines are synchronized once they're running, and there's no reason to ever operate them independently, but it would be nice to see the instruments showing the staggered start-up sequence.

 

[Dev One]

First guess is within the xml of the particular gauge in the Panel.cfg.
There should be two sets of position parameters, one for each needle, & the appropriate engine number and the parameter read. Sorry to be vague but a more detailed look required at the gauge you intend to use.
Keith

 

[Mick]

Hi Keith,

Thanks for your comments.

I wasn't planning to use a dual-needle gauge. I could do that but it would require rearranging the panel considerably. I have bezels in place for two of each engine instrument. It would be a lot of work to rearrange that.

I did try a dual-needle gauge from the stock DC-3 but both needles responded to engine1, so I went back to what I started with. It didn't work properly just like twin gauges didn't work properly. I would happily swap out the engine gauges for a pair that work with the separate engines. In fact, I would grit my teeth and rearrange the panel for dual-needle gauges if I could get those to work.

I have found gauges that come in pairs, and with other models they somehow ""know" enough to display the readings for engine1 and engine2, but on our model they both display engine1.

The simple solution is to just live with that, and in fact at the moment I just have two copies of a simple single engine gauge sitting side by side on the panel. That gives the illusion of a twin engined panel, except during the start sequence when the engines start one at a time but the instruments come to life simultaneously. And it would be nice to be able to look at the instruments to see whether or not both engines have started and continued to run.

I went back to the original pairs of single engine gauges after trying several twinned pairs and finding that the different gauges didn't respond to the different engines.

What's got me scratching my head is that the pairs I've tried all work as desired with the other models they came with but not with our new one. That implies that the issue isn't in the gauges and must be in the model or its associated files. Yet I find nothing in the cfg or air files that I can fiddle with to change anything.

Maybe the only solution is to just avoid looking at the engine instruments during the start sequence, since that's the only time the readings from the two engines should be different. But it annoys me that I can't get it to work as it should. I'd like to have it right. Drat!

 

[Ivan]

Hello Mick,

I have recently (within the last couple years) been programming Gauges for Combat Flight Simulator and at least in that context, the issue with not being able read the correct engine parameters is an issue in the Gauge file and not the AIR file.
If you were working with FS 2000, I would offer to just program a pair of gauges for you but I suspect that FS 2002 / 2004 are different.
At least for CFS, Dual Needle Tachometers or Separate Tachometers for each Engine are not difficult.

- Ivan.

 

[Mick]

Hello Mick,

I have recently (within the last couple years) been programming Gauges for Combat Flight Simulator and at least in that context, the issue with not being able read the correct engine parameters is an issue in the Gauge file and not the AIR file.
If you were working with FS 2000, I would offer to just program a pair of gauges for you but I suspect that FS 2002 / 2004 are different.
At least for CFS, Dual Needle Tachometers or Separate Tachometers for each Engine are not difficult.

- Ivan.

Thanks Ivan,

I don't know enough about gauges to say whether FS8 and FS9 gauges are different.

What has me confused is that the gauges I've tried all work the way I want in other models. So there must be something about the one I'm working on that's different.

 

[Shessi]

Hi Mick,
I think you've answered it yourself.

I appreciate what Ivan has done and said, but I would have thought that the gauge draws it's parameters from the airfile and/or possibly the ac.cfg file, certainly in Fs9.

The next thing is to try the airfile from an ac where the gauge works correctly, and put it in your model. If that does not work then substitute the ac.cfg file (changing the Fs9 header info to fit the new ac) from the working ac. This should prove that your original airfile and/or ac.cfg needs to be tweaked with info from the working files. Compare info in both to get the right parameters, and substitute in info where needed.

The mdl does not hold any engine parameters or info.

Cheers

Shessi

 

[Mick]

Hi Mick,
I think you've answered it yourself.

I appreciate what Ivan has done and said, but I would have thought that the gauge draws it's parameters from the airfile and/or possibly the ac.cfg file, certainly in Fs9.

The next thing is to try the airfile from an ac where the gauge works correctly, and put it in your model. If that does not work then substitute the ac.cfg file (changing the Fs9 header info to fit the new ac) from the working ac. This should prove that your original airfile and/or ac.cfg needs to be tweaked with info from the working files. Compare info in both to get the right parameters, and substitute in info where needed.

The mdl does not hold any engine parameters or info.

Cheers

Shessi

Thanks Mark,

I figured that here was nothing in the model but I'm glad to be sure of it now.

I looked in the air file and couldn't find anything that looked appropriate, but I will try a different one and see if it works. I don't know if there are any other piston twin engined helicopters. I'll try one from a turboshaft twin and hopefully it won't mess up anything else.

I have explored the General Engine Data and Piston Engine sections of the aircraft.cfg file and it's all set up as it should be when compared to other piston twins (airplanes, for the lack of piston twin helos.)

I will continue to experiment, and your comments will prpovide some guidance.

Thanks!

 

[Ivan]

Hello Mick, Shessi,

I didn't mean to mislead anyone. There is obviously some difference between CFS / FS 2000 and what you are using.
There is no equivalent to the data that is in your Aircraft.CFG file for CFS.
I know that for CFS (which actually uses the FS 2000 SDK for Gauges uses "Token Variables" as parameters to Macro calls.
See attached image for the parameters to the MAKE_NEEDLE Macro call for Tachometer 2 from the instrument set that I programmed for Aleatorylamp a while back for his Focke-Wulf FW 200.
(I highlighted the Token Variable.)

Perhaps you can identify something similar in your XML code?

I actually just purchased FS 2000 and FS 2002 about two weeks ago from eBay but have not had a chance to install anything yet.

Good Luck!
- Ivan.

 

[michaelvader]

gauge help,

Hi Mick,

I'm realy not a gauges expert and need a lot of help for my own projects,
but,
perhaps I have what you need in my wide gauges collection.
Just send me a picture of the original cockpit or dashboard of the plane you work on and perhaps with a bit of luck I have something in my collection
Yours
Papi

 

[Mick]

Hi Mick,

I'm realy not a gauges expert and need a lot of help for my own projects,
but,
perhaps I have what you need in my wide gauges collection.
Just send me a picture of the original cockpit or dashboard of the plane you work on and perhaps with a bit of luck I have something in my collection
Yours
Papi

Hi Papi,

Thanks for the offer, but I also have a vast collection of gauges and I've tried several sets of paired gauges and several dual-needle gauges and they don't work properly. They all work properly on the aircraft they came with, but not on this one, so I'm pretty sure it's not a gauge problem. I think it must be in the aircraft.cfg or air file.

I'm going to try Shessi's suggestion of trying an air file from a twin and see if it helps.

Otherwise, David will try to program a set of gauges that will respond to our engine2. He knows how to program gauges, but as I saad, I don't think the problem is in the gauges, because the gauges I've tried have nothing wrong with them - they just don't work properly on this one model.

 

[Mick]

Another data point

Well, I tried using a different air file and each attempt crashed FS9. I couldn't find another twin piston-engined helicopter, so I tried an air file from a turboshaft twin and it crashed FS9 to a black screen lock-up, then CTD.

So I tried an air file from a piston twin airplane (the stock DC-3) and the result was the same.

Here's the new data point. I put the left and right RPM gauges from the stock Baron into the panel.cfg file, which I'd done before, but I tried it again and noticed something I'd missed before.

Although the Baron has separate left and right RMP gauges, and I made sure the two file entries were left and right, both gauges reported for engine1. What I hadn't noticed before is that the tool tip that pops for both gauges shows RMP for engine1. So even though separate gauges are present for the left and right engines, the sim is reading the first gauge for both engines and ignoring the other one as if it wasn't there.

And yes, I did make sure that the gauge lines in the panel.cfg file are not duplicated. The gauge(s) show up in their separate positions on the panel, but RPM1 is duplicated and RPM2 is ignored.

I am even more befuddled that before.

David knows gauge programming, and I have a little basic knowledge of XML gauge programming myself - enough to check and be sire that the different gauges are indeed coded to respond to the two different engines. But they don't; they only respond to the single engine.

EDIT:

Second new data point: I put the old RPM1 gauge back, and then the Baron RPM gauge read engine 2, as it should.

Alas, while the tool tip said it was reporting on engine2, it didn't respond to either engine; the needle just stayed on zero.

 

[Ivan]

Hello Mick,

I hope this information might be useful to you.
Recently I went back to edit some C language gauges that I had done.
I found that I had made a mistake inside the code of the gauge itself and failed to correct the name of the gauge from the example that I had copied it from (It started as a 400 mm Japanese Manifold Pressure Gauge).
I believe that if I had done this with a pair of tachometers, I would have seen what you are seeing now.
There is a bit more background information but it is specific to .GAU files and probably not relevant to what you are doing.
The actual gauge container (.GAU in my case and .XML in your case) has different names, but the code inside does not identify the gauge name differently and once the simulator finds one, it doesn't try to load the other because by name it is the same gauge.

- Ivan.

 

[Mick]

Hello Mick,

I hope this information might be useful to you.
Recently I went back to edit some C language gauges that I had done.
I found that I had made a mistake inside the code of the gauge itself and failed to correct the name of the gauge from the example that I had copied it from (It started as a 400 mm Japanese Manifold Pressure Gauge).
I believe that if I had done this with a pair of tachometers, I would have seen what you are seeing now.
There is a bit more background information but it is specific to .GAU files and probably not relevant to what you are doing.
The actual gauge container (.GAU in my case and .XML in your case) has different names, but the code inside does not identify the gauge name differently and once the simulator finds one, it doesn't try to load the other because by name it is the same gauge.

- Ivan.

Thanks Ivan,

In this case, I've been trying pairs of gauges that are properly coded - in fact, they're stock MS FS9 gauges that work properly in other aircraft, so they have the necessary coding for FS9 to recognize them as different gauges.
Except when they're in our current project, then it doesn't.

I think I've done enough troubleshooting to be sure the trouble isn't in the gauges. I've tried enough different ones that all are known to work properly in other aircraft, and with our model they don't work all the same way.

I don't think it's the model either; I don't think there's anything in the model that affects these matters, and neither does David, who actually knows about 3D models (which I do not.) It has to be in the flight model files.

Alas, attempts to use a different air file only crashed the sim, which I don't understand, since I've swapped air files plenty of times with no problems like that. Comparisons with other aircraft.cfg powerplant sections shows that ours is set up just like any other piston twin.

Still, your suggestions give me an idea. I don't want to use gauges for engine 1 from one set and gauges from a different set for engine 2 because they would look different next to each other on the panel. That would look much too odd. But I have an idea, thanks to your comments, that I might be able to disguise a copy of a gauge and make it look like a whole different gauge that would work like a different gauge but look right on the panel.

We'll see how it goes...

EDIT:

Rats! Didn't work! I renamed a copy of an XML RPM gauge, edited everywhere in the text that had anything to do with the gauge name and the engine it should respond to, yet the two tachometers sprung to life the instant engine 1 started to catch, before engine 2 had started to crank. Bah!

 

[UncleTgt]

Hi Mick,
I think you've answered it yourself.

I appreciate what Ivan has done and said, but I would have thought that the gauge draws it's parameters from the airfile and/or possibly the ac.cfg file, certainly in Fs9.

The next thing is to try the airfile from an ac where the gauge works correctly, and put it in your model. If that does not work then substitute the ac.cfg file (changing the Fs9 header info to fit the new ac) from the working ac. This should prove that your original airfile and/or ac.cfg needs to be tweaked with info from the working files. Compare info in both to get the right parameters, and substitute in info where needed.

The mdl does not hold any engine parameters or info.

Cheers

Shessi

Mick

I would agree with Shessi's suggestion ref. swapping an airfile from a plane you know reads multiple engine gauge info correctly.

I used AirEd to view some CFS2 & FS9 multi-engine airfiles. Most FS9 airfiles don't contain record 311: Number of Engines, whereas CFS2 airfiles usually do.

My theory is the gauge is directed to look at this record in the airfile, otherwise it defaults to 1 engine & reads everything as Engine 1 records, no matter how the .gau is coded?

Hope this helps.

 

[Ivan]

Hello UncleTgt,

Perhaps you are on to something here.
I remember having some really strange problems when I first started working on AIR files many years back.
I had an aircraft that could not be belly landed.
If one tried, it would slow down, start wobbling and then flip over.
From what I could tell, it turned out to be a record incompatibility with using records from a different simulator version.

Recently I was trying to locate where in the AIR file a certain feature was controlled.
I used a program to list every record number found in each of the stock flyable CFS AIR files to figure out what was and was not normally found in a CFS AIR file.

That might help in identifying a record that is present but should not be.

- Ivan.

 

[Dev One]

Mick,
Do you have my Gloster Meteor U16 model?
I have two separate gauges & they work independently although the tooltip reads the LH gauge which I had not previously noticed, could be easily changed in the xml.
If you do not I can send to you the bmp & xml files. You then can easily adapt the xml for a twin gauge.
Alternatively send me your preferred gauge bmp's & I will attempt to modify to your requirements.
Keith

P.S. I presume that your aircraft.cfg has an entry for engine.0 & engine.1 in [GeneralEngineData]

 

[Mick]

Thanks Guys,

Keith, if your Meatbox U16 is the one that came with the RAF Llanbedr scenery, I have it. and yes, the cfg file has the engines listed the way you mentioned. I might take you up on your offer but not at this moment, for the reason mentioned below.

Ivan & Uncle Tgt, the air files may be where the issue is coming from. Alas, every attempt to substitute a different one resulted in a black screen and a FS9 CTD. The one I'm using came from a single piston helo and I suspect that there's something in that air file that tells FS that the aircraft has just one engine. I looked through that air file and could find nothing that might do that, but I know little to nothing about air files, so maybe I just couldn't find what I was looking for, or recognize it. I have also read that what's in the the aircraft.cfg file overrides what might be in the air file, but I don't know if that's correct.

Anyhow...

At present I'm not going to fiddle any more, at least for now, because David is going to have a go at making a new flight model starting from scratch. I started fiddling when he told me he had tried to come up with a twin piston engine helicopter flight model and for some reason couldn't do it, and we'd have to settle for a single-engine flight model, so I thought I'd give it a try myself. As I have no idea how to build a flight model from scratch, I started with the one from the AlphaSims S-55, added the second engine, and enhanced the performance to provide a top speed appropriate for the new model, which is almost twice as fast as the S-55. It handled like a powerful but ponderous, big helicopter, which is what I wanted. The only trouble is this gauge issue. But it's a visible issue and an annoying one!

Anyway, David now thinks he can make a twin piston engines flight model and I hope he's right because that's what we need. So I am going to sit back and work on other things while I root heartily for him to succeed.

Meanwhile, I have found and ordered a book about the type, and it should arrive next week. Since we don't have any photos of the panel in a resolution that shows which instruments are which, my panel layout is highly presumptive. The book will probably have good panel photos clear enough to see which instruments go where, and I'll probably have to rework the instrument board from scratch anyway.

So Keith, I will keep your generous offer in mind, but if David is successful I won't need to bother you about it.

When this project is completed, as always, the denizens of the Outhouse will be the first to know. And of course, if we run into further bafflement, you will also be the first to know.

 

[Dev One]

I have a question about gauges. It relates to an aircraft that David and I are working on.

Since neither of us are helicopter experts, we're deriving our flight model from one that's known to work well, making the required changes to adapt it to the new model. So far, so good, except for one annoying little glitch.

The flight model we started with is from a single piston engined aircraft, and our model is of a twin. On the panel we have all the usual engine instruments paired up. The necessary edits were made to the engine sections of the aircraft.cfg file so that the engines start in sequence (rather than simultaneously) and the start-up smoke comes from the engines' separate exhaust stacks at the proper times, so FS9 "knows" that the aircraft is a twin.

To replace each single engine instrument I found paired instruments meant for twin engine use. For example, for the tachometers I found gauges with names like WhizzerRPM1 & WhizzerRPM2, or WhateverRPM & WhateverRPM_001 and the like.

Here's the thing - they both report the status of engine1. I expected that they were programmed to respond to separate engines, so that, for example, WhizzerRPM1 would report for engine1 and WhizzerRPM2 would report for engine 2, but nooooo - they both respond to engine1.

I thought they would do this automatically, as per their internal programming, and since I can find nothing in the aircraft.cfg file or the Air file that would allow this to be changed, that would seem to confirm the idea that they should do it on their own. But they don't.

Can someone tell me how to get the gauges to report on engine2

It's not critical since the engines are synchronized once they're running, and there's no reason to ever operate them independently, but it would be nice to see the instruments showing the staggered start-up sequence.

Mick,
I have just checked the FS9 bog std DC3 twin needle RPM gauge & the tooltip text does show either the left or right rpm - for the left rpm readout put your cursor in the LH side & for the right put your cursor in the RHS of the dial.
Other question, is your twin engined beast a piston engine or a jet type? Dont know how one would tie two engines into one outlet - i.e. a single main rotor, or if that affects the outcome.
Keith
Keith

 

[Mick]

Mick,
I have just checked the FS9 bog std DC3 twin needle RPM gauge & the tooltip text does show either the left or right rpm - for the left rpm readout put your cursor in the LH side & for the right put your cursor in the RHS of the dial.
Other question, is your twin engined beast a piston engine or a jet type? Don't know how one would tie two engines into one outlet - i.e. a single main rotor, or if that affects the outcome.
Keith
Keith

Hi Keith,

The beastie is a piston twin. Like many of us, I've replaced poor flight models with ones snitched from other aircraft, always using a similar type of aircraft, and making the usual changes in the aircraft.cfg file. Single engine jet for single engine jet, prop twin for prop twin, that sort of thing. But in this case there is no similar aircraft to crib from. As far as I know, there is no other piston twin helicopter available for FS9.

Since I'm nowhere near capable of asking a flight model from scratch, I started with a piston single (the AlphaSims S-55) and adapted it as best I could. I got the two engines to start in sequence with the start-up smoke coming from each engine's exhaust stacks, and I got the performance right about where it should be, but something somewhere in that original flight model is apparently preventing any of the gauges from responding to the second engine.

I'm pretty sure it's not in the cfg file,and I found nothing in the air file that looked like it determined how many engines there are, and when I tried using other air files FS crashed. Stymied!

So I'm leaving it in David's hands. He's going to try again to make a piston twin flight model from scratch and I am rooting heartily for his success!

I really appreciate your time and efforts to help with this, and the same for Ivan, Uncle Tgt, Shessi and Papi.