just my thoughts on the talladega finish

[Daveroo]

both regan smith AND tony stewart should be scored at the end or tail end of the lead lap cars..smith for passing under the yellow line and tony for forcing smith down there..it was an obvious attempt at blocking and forced him under the yellow line and thats a violation of the rules and you are to be sent to the end of the longest line in normal cases...

BUT if i were regan smith..i would have just driven right through stewarts rear quarter panel...tony would have won while crashing..but he wouldnt try to block me again...i dont want to brag..but i was very successfull in my carrear in racing and didnt put up with stuff like that from anyone...i had a chance to join the then new series "NASCAR BUCSH series" back in 1983,but blew it because i was ...no i had a over inflated ego..and didnt want to play by thier rules..so i electited to stay on the west coast and drive sprint cars...but i NEVER put with crap from anyone..period...tony WOULD have had a mangled car today

 

[Cazzie]

Talladega is always a fiasco IMHO Dave since the introduction of restrictor plates. I guarantee you that DE Sr. would have had Smoke crossing the finish line backwards!

My man went out early and with the demolition derby already underway, I decided to watch football and baseball. Next week, I'll be at the race in Martinsville, track is only 30 clicks up Rte. 58 from my house. Will probably go to qualifying Friday too, if I can get someone to get the kids at school. But I fear it will be a Jimmie Johnson race.

Caz

 

[Panther_99FS]

Talladega is always a fiasco IMHO Dave since the introduction of restrictor plates.
Caz

Yep & it always will be....:mixedsmi:

Road courses "used" to be the fiascos.....Now restrictor plate racing has won the coveted 'fiasco' race award...:cost1:

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I'll be the contrarian here. I like restrictor plate racing. You cannot go consistently over 200mph and have NASCAR exist. Insurance simply will never allow it - and nobody is gonna invest the money to build tracks to handle higher speeds. NASCAR is not just about speed anymore and NASCAR is trying to do what it must to keep it interesting - sometimes good decisions sometimes bad. It is that simple.

Restrictor plate racing is a chess game with a lot of luck involved. I think it adds an interesting wrinkle to NASCAR racing. The message from today's race is simple - spin your opponent in turn 4 if you have to to win. Regan learned that today. The way NASCAR has ruled Regan was in the wrong - the rulings I have seen are that you have to have the nose of your car past the midline (meaning to the door) of your opponents car in order to have the inside position - if you don't your in the wrong. Based on that Regan was in the wrong. NASCAR is ruling pretty consistently on this. I have to give them credit for this - even though I was disappointed as I'm not a fan of the 20.

-Ed-

PS Caz note the other thread on Carl discusses today's race as well.

 

[Panther_99FS]

Hey All,

I like restrictor plate racing..

Hmmm...
I wonder what percentage of the drivers like restrictor plate racing..:ques:


(I know, it's not about what the drivers want, no manner how many injuries occur at restrictor plate races...)

 

[smoores]

Nascar has stated on numerous occasions that on the last lap, passing below the yellow line is ok on the final lap. It was even said in the drivers meeting today. Regan should have won because he did everything ACCORDING TO THE RULES!

 

[Panther_99FS]

Nascar has stated on numerous occasions that on the last lap, passing below the yellow line is ok on the final lap. It was even said in the drivers meeting today. Regan should have won because he did everything ACCORDING TO THE RULES!

Yeah smoores..
I've been thinking about that too....

So it appears that NASCAR got it all wrong today....

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I have never heard a NASCAR official say you can pass below the yellow line - only drivers claiming it. Can anybody show a tape or a written rule that says so? So I guess we'll see what the ruling is. Wonder if it has to do with how far below the yellow line? Or maybe NASCAR is actually being consistent on this rule.

-Ed-

An edit: And as for fiascos well short tracks have also routinely been looked at as fiascos. Road races used to be fiascos because drivers put so little emphasis on them - not anymore. Now it appears that the bottom line to me looks like - races in which the driver's ability to control his own fate is diminished are considered fiascos - short tracks and super speedways. To some extent this it is always true that a driver doesn't control his own fate. Lets look at today. Carl Edwards deliberately stayed in the back all day to avoid getting into somebody else's wreck then he drove to the front and CAUSED a big one by being stooopid for a moment - and one moment is all it takes at Talledega. Maybe he should have been "in the race" all along so as to not be so out of it he couldn't even control his car on pit road.

Edit 2: Any word on Hamlin? - hope he's OK.

 

[wombat666]

"I like restrictor plate racing."

Jeez Ed, that's a contradiction in terms if ever I saw one, no such thing as 'racing' when the cars use a 'restrictor plate'.
The sane method of keeping control of car speeds is the Internationally used 'Rev Limiter'.
The cars are much more responsive and not choked off.
A driver can get out of trouble without waiting for a strangled power plant to try and get enough grunt to the rear wheels instead of just sitting there as a passenger.

 

[Cazzie]

Denny will be okay Ed, but he is still in the Birmingham hospital undergoing tests. He is out of the Chump Chase, may start next week in Martinsville (I hope so). But he has multiple concussions and that may be doubtful, it will be a physician's call.

Short track oval racing is no way a fiasco, it is roots racing. It is the best form of racing, beating and banging is expected, as are tempers. Unlike the ultra-superspeedways, which are a race of nerves, shorts tracks are a race of endurance, pit work, and driver smarts.

Caz

 

[Panther_99FS]

From the Craftsman Truck series at Daytona, 2007:

"OUT OF BOUNDS: Drivers throughout the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series garage were still talking about last week's three-wide finish at Daytona International Speedway.
While they admitted the finish was good for television, most wondered why NASCAR allowed Johnny Benson to drive below the yellow line - Daytona's out of bounds line - to jump from third to second in the final 200 yards.
Benson wasn't penalized because "if you can see the checkered flag on the last lap, anything goes," according to NASCAR spokesman Owen Kearns."

 

[flyinjake]

From what I am reading I think the confusion stems from the incident in Feb 07 at Daytona where Johnny Benson went below the yellow line on the last lap and improved his position to 2nd place but was not penalized. But that was a truck race.

NASCAR is saying they warned the drivers in the morning meeting not to improve position while going below the yellow line. At least that is what Jayski.com is reporting.

Anyway as a former race car driver I can tell during the post race interviews (and not just this race) they do not like racing like this. Was it Kevin Harvick who stated we should just come here and run the last 20 laps? Its not the reduction in speed that makes it boring its the rules put in place. If they allowed the cars to be spread out like Atlanta (which still is or was faster after the repaving) or Vegas then the race would really really be boring. 43 cars spread out on a track as big as Talladega? You think Michigan is a boring race wait till you saw that?

The attendance and television numbers tell the story. Sure the attendance being down could be partially blamed on the economy. If that is true then one would think television viewer ship would be up...but its not...its actually down. I myself do not make an effort and usually do not watch NASCAR races anymore. I just wait and watch the highlights later that night. Friends at work who were diehard fans no longer go to the local Atlanta race or watch the races like they used to. Sure they have special events they watch such as Bristol but for the most part they are unhappy with decisions NASCAR has made.

NASCAR is no different from any other company. They will make good decisions and bad decisions. It will win and lose customers. Right now they are losing customers.

In closing, the most important question would be, why were there so many unexplained tire failures at these reduced speeds?

Later
Robert

 

[Panther_99FS]

In closing, the most important question would be, why were there so many unexplained tire failures at these reduced speeds?

Later
Robert

Since I didn't hear too many teams complain....

I'm going to take a wild guess and state that perhaps the teams were "experimenting" outside the recommended envelopes by Goodyear...:cost1:

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Well I'll reiterate "I like restrictor plate racing".

Why? Well it goes to the heart of NASCAR racing. NASCAR is NO longer about race what ya bring. That era is dead - flat dead. There is too much technology and too much money involved for that to ever live again - except at local tracks. So moving on...

There are 36 NASCAR races a year. I remember when I thought it was boring - turn left turn left and turn left again and only two races a year on road courses where right turns actually happen. It was only after a lot of watching did I realize how much technology, strategy and teamwork there was in NASCAR. Basically NASCAR races boil down to four kinds of races - short tracks, D's, road courses and super speedways. Every track is different consequently every race style is different. A driver and his team has to perform on all four kinds of tracks. The requirements in terms of driving style and car technology and setups are very very different. Who adapts best wins the Championship. This to me is what NASCAR is about - who can adapt best to these changes - who can survive the races in which luck plays a bigger role - who can do it for 36 races - now 26 to qualify 10 to decide what driver/team wins it all. This evolution has taken NASCAR far from the roots of the sport - my whiskey running driver agin your whiskey running driver. Such is what we call progress and you can never turn back the clock. While the sport is definitely different I'm not at all of the opinion that it is worse. Yes it has it's problems - every sport does and like in all human endeavors you go forward as best you can.

I too certainly long for the old days - I believe at one time there was a perfect balance between man's abilities and technology. Now it's too much technology (for example no man can fly today's fighters without being hooked to a computer - it's virtually impossible - that's why we call it "fly by wire" - maybe the ultimate was a man in a P51D - who knows) but you can never roll that back. So now you are "stuck" with a different world where technology supercedes man - how do you make that world competitive - well NASCAR is doing it's best in the world of stockcar racing. They have mixed teamwork (pit stops) with track variety with motor requirements to try to create that variety for teams to compete in - what else are they supposed to do?

So getting back to the first line of this post "I like restrictor plate racing". I think it adds a truly interesting wrinkle to NASCAR racing - a wrinkle that Dale (we know who I mean) was the absolute master of and his son also knows well having learned from the Master.

In fact I am very comfortable suggesting that NASCAR is actually a better more complicated form of racing than effwun is today simply because of the variety of circumstances NASCAR drivers/teams face week in and week out. The only advantage effwun has is weather and NASCAR could add that if they chose. That effwun is global and NASCAR isn't - so what - I also think football is a better game of football than football because of all the strategy and planning that goes into it (follow that if you will)! I don't care what the rest of the world thinks.

Rev limiters - If any of you noticed during the race at Talledega Jimmy Johnson's team removed the rev limiter from a box in his car. Why - Jimmy wanted more power. The rev limiter was intended to prevent the pushrod engine from over-reving and it does that. Again a strategy decision - at what point do you let the engine rev and risk it blowing up? Good question = a strategy decision.

Again this is not 1950 and never ever will be again.

-Ed-

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Directly from NASCAR.com

"At Sunday's drivers' meeting, NASCAR reiterated the rule about passing under the yellow line and provided the same information to all drivers and crew chiefs in a hand out, as it has done in past Daytona and Talladega races.
The verbatim language is ...
This is your warning: race above the yellow line. If, in NASCAR's judgment, you go below the yellow line to improve your position, you will be black-flagged. If in NASCAR's judgment you force someone below the yellow line (in an effort to stop him from passing you), you may be black-flagged.
"During the last lap of [Sunday's] race at Talladega Superspeedway the driver of the No. 01 violated NASCAR policy by driving under the yellow line to improve his position," NASCAR president Mike Helton said. "In NASCAR's opinion he was not forced below the yellow line. NASCAR correctly took immediate action to enforce the policy by penalizing the No. 01 and scoring the No. 20 as the race winner.
Helton concluded by saying ...
"Since the end of the race there has been some confusion as to what is allowable during the last lap at Daytona and Talladega. To be clear, as we go forward, there will be no passing under the yellow line at any time during NASCAR races at Daytona or Talladega, period. This includes any passing below the yellow line near the start/finish line on the final lap.""


Seems as I suggested NASCAR has simply decided to be consistent. There is absolutely no rule requiring consistency between the Truck, Busch and Cup series.


-Ed-

 

[PRB]

I too like the plate races, for all the reasons EasyEd has posted. To each his own, I guess. Heck I think baseball is kind of boring, but not nearly as boring as football. To football fans that’s an incomprehensible statement. The planning and strategy, the dynamic of the draft, that’s interesting to me, and it’s non-stop through all 500 miles at those tracks. If all the drivers hate those races, why does it seem so special to them to win at those two tracks? Sure, some drivers openly state they hate them, but many others say they love racing those tracks. If we’re going to go by what the drivers say, then I’m afraid we will all have to agree that California, Michigan, and Chicagoland are the most awesome-est races all year, because the drivers all say they love racing at those tracks. They also say they like the new Bristol track since it’s now multi-groove and you can pass without bumping cars out of the way. Fan’s critique? “Bristol is ruined – they turned it into just another cookie-cutter track”.
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I’d like to see what the rulebook actually says in the case of passing below the line and being forced down there, etc. Yesterday after the race, the commentary was that the rule says “anything goes” on “the last lap”. This evening on the Mikey show, they were going on about how it’s not simply on “the last lap” that anything goes, but only when you can “see the checkered flag”. Well, which is it? The only way NASCAR can seriously suggest the 01 was not “forced” to go below the line is to suggest that Regan “could have lifted”, which is true, I guess. The practical lesson learned by Regan is that next time he’ll hold his line, and wreck the car coming down on him.

 

[wombat666]

Ed,
'NASCAR' and 'Technology' are two words that just don't fit together.
:d
Don't get me wrong, I am HIGHLY impressed that an elderly pushrod V8 breathing through a single 4 barrel carburetor knocks out so much reliable power without destroying itself.

But you seem to miss my point on rev-limiters, the V8 Supercar Series run a standard limiter on all cars, IIRC it's fixed at 7800 RPM.
It does help preserve engines but the object of the exercise is to keep top end power under control.
Restrictor plates are a cheap and dirty method of strangling an engine, to the point where I noticed long ago that the field need several laps after a 'yellow' to struggle up to race speed.
With the rev-limiter a car has instant power on tap up to the setting on the limiter.

FWIW, I don't have any time for EffWun at all, the last few real racers departed in 2001 and the supposed 'Cutting Edge of Motorsport Technology' is a crock.
Not only are the cars resricted to V8 architecture, even the angle of vee and the length of the crankshaft is fixed.


The regulations which encourage designers and engineer to explore new avenues are those of the ACO, one thing Le Mans offers is diversity.
Despite some strange decisions, the WRC rewards alternate technology (even if the regulations are being dumbed down each year), while the real cutting edge engineering goes into MotoGP, and more to the point, finds its way into production machines.

Must be time for my medication ...... :d

A PS:I picked up a 14 years old Australian on another board where he was waxing lyrical about the 1000K Bathurst being one of the 'Worlds Premier Motorsport Events' ....... which it certainly is not!
We do get an entertaining 1000K sprint race in a great setting, but it's a pale shade of what it should be.
Taxicab racing and the only combatants are Ford and GM.
Sadly, the shallow end of the gene pool seems to rule today.

 

[Panther_99FS]

One thing's for certain with restrictor plate racing....

The fans desires have been placed above the drivers desires...(& possibly safety with a tighter field involved..)