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Learn something new every day,French P-36 WOW I didn't know this

H

HouseHobbit

Charter Member
Learn something new every day,French P-36 WOW I didn't know this

I have been doing some research into Pearl for the P-36/P-40 missions..
Found this and was shocked, That I didn't remember any of this..

A 10 to 1 kill rate, on German aircraft during the early war in Europe..
The first allied victories against Bf 109e models..WOW!!
This little P-36 must have been under-rated by the US.

At: wikipedia.org

"On 8 September 1939, aircraft from Groupe de Chasse II/4 were credited with shooting down two Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 109Es, the first Allied air victory of World War II on the Western front. During 1939–1940, French pilots claimed 230 confirmed and 80 probable victories in H75s against only 29 aircraft lost in aerial combat. Of the 11 French aces of the early part of the war, seven flew H75s. The leading ace of the time was Lieutenant Edmond Marin la Meslée with 15 confirmed and five probable victories in the type. "

I am Going to have to build a bunch of French Missions for this it seems..
Didn't realize that this was so badly overlooked by me..
P-36's killing Bf 109's and shooting the best of the Luftwaffe out of the French sky
Got to love a good old piece of American iron, in the hands of Brave French pilots..

Didn't realize that the P-36 was so effective in the hands of the French during the early war..
Need to talk to our French History Masters about this it seems..
 
Cool stuff! I believe they were also used by the RAF in the CBI Theater in a limited combat role, I think I read that some did actually see some action.
 
I will try and see that CFS3 is also included with this set, I will make a set for both ETO and CFS3..
Not a problem, the CFS3 set will require a H75 to be imported since there is NO H75 in CFS3..
 
HouseHobbit said:
This little P-36 must have been under-rated by the US.
Click to expand...

The Yanks pretty much dismissed just about everything other than the P-38, P-47 and P-51 when it comes to USAAF, and F6F and F4U when it comes to the guys in blue. Cases in point:

P-36 alias Curtiss Hawk 75 - look what the French and Finns achieved with it.
P-39 - look what the Soviets achieved with it.
P-40 - look what the British and Commonwealth achieved with it, according to Japanese pilots it was the most feared adversary of them all at low levels.
F2A alias Buffalo alias B-239/339/439 - look what the Brits and especially Finns achieved with it.

All of them efficient fighting machines facing tough opposition and often coming out on top but usually we only hear people praising the battle record of aircraft that fought against outclassed and/or outnumbered enemies late in the war.
 
HouseHobbit said:
I will try and see that CFS3 is also included with this set, I will make a set for both ETO and CFS3..
Not a problem, the CFS3 set will require a H75 to be imported since there is NO H75 in CFS3..
Click to expand...

I (think I) have the source for Dancat's P-36/Hawk-75 if anybody wants to finish it for us. Bit out of touch at the moment - too much on in Real Life!
 
greycap.raf said:
The Yanks pretty much dismissed just about everything other than the P-38, P-47 and P-51 when it comes to USAAF, and F6F and F4U when it comes to the guys in blue. Cases in point:

P-36 alias Curtiss Hawk 75 - look what the French and Finns achieved with it.
P-39 - look what the Soviets achieved with it.
P-40 - look what the British and Commonwealth achieved with it, according to Japanese pilots it was the most feared adversary of them all at low levels.
F2A alias Buffalo alias B-239/339/439 - look what the Brits and especially Finns achieved with it.

All of them efficient fighting machines facing tough opposition and often coming out on top but usually we only hear people praising the battle record of aircraft that fought against outclassed and/or outnumbered enemies late in the war.
Click to expand...

Yes I have several accounts from German pilots that rate the P-40 very high..
The interviews I have from German pilots said they believed the P-40 was more dangerous the the early spits were..
And the P-39, was a overlooked aircraft by most..
The Russians put the P-39 to very good use as did several other allied air forces..
The P-36 as I am learning was very successful in the hands of the French in the early parts of the war..
As for the Buffalo, I know that it was well used by our allies also..
And most books don't often reflect this..
 
HouseHobbit said:
Didn't realize that the P-36 was so effective in the hands of the French during the early war..
Need to talk to our French History Masters about this it seems..
Click to expand...

The H.75 (as designated by the Armee de l'Air) wasn't the only French fighter to fare well against Bf-109s and Bf-110s. Both the D.520 and the MS.406 had favourable kill-loss ratios as well, in head-to-head battles against German fighters. Mind you, the H.75 seems to have been the most common of French aces. It is an irony of the air war of September 1939-June 1940 that the individual French pilot could fare so well and yet (I will argue due to poor strategic coordination and terrible leadership at the top) suffer such a disgraceful defeat.

In short, plenty of room for interesting missions here! A few were built into ETO (more play-balanced that anything) but it would be great to see a few 'storyline' missions for some of the notable French aces like La Meslee and Le Gloan (can you repeat the 5 kills in one sortie?). Zep did a terrific series of Clostermann missions for 1943-45 for the later periods.

The Luftwaffe suffered horrific losses during May-June 1940, beginning with about 3,600 aircraft and ending with around 2,600 (IIRC). The Luftwaffe flew many more sorties per aircraft than the allies so these losses are perhaps understandable. Compare that to the massacre of light allied bombers attacking the bridge at Sedan and we can see that ground-attack was a hazardous proposition in 1940 just as it was throughout the war. The Luftwaffe certainly won the air war, but they paid a dear price to win it.
 
viso said:
The H.75 (as designated by the Armee de l'Air) wasn't the only French fighter to fare well against Bf-109s and Bf-110s. Both the D.520 and the MS.406 had favourable kill-loss ratios as well, in head-to-head battles against German fighters. Mind you, the H.75 seems to have been the most common of French aces. It is an irony of the air war of September 1939-June 1940 that the individual French pilot could fare so well and yet (I will argue due to poor strategic coordination and terrible leadership at the top) suffer such a disgraceful defeat.

In short, plenty of room for interesting missions here! A few were built into ETO (more play-balanced that anything) but it would be great to see a few 'storyline' missions for some of the notable French aces like La Meslee and Le Gloan (can you repeat the 5 kills in one sortie?). Zep did a terrific series of Clostermann missions for 1943-45 for the later periods.

The Luftwaffe suffered horrific losses during May-June 1940, beginning with about 3,600 aircraft and ending with around 2,600 (IIRC). The Luftwaffe flew many more sorties per aircraft than the allies so these losses are perhaps understandable. Compare that to the massacre of light allied bombers attacking the bridge at Sedan and we can see that ground-attack was a hazardous proposition in 1940 just as it was throughout the war. The Luftwaffe certainly won the air war, but they paid a dear price to win it.
Click to expand...

The H-75 is just a P-36..Designed by good old American know how..

The Curtiss P-36 Hawk, also known as the Curtiss Hawk Model 75, was an American-designed and built fighter aircraft of the 1930s and 40s. A contemporary of both the Hawker Hurricane and Messerschmitt Bf 109, it was one of the first of a new generation of combat aircraft—a sleek monoplane design making extensive use of metal in its construction and powered by a powerful radial engine.

The Curtiss Model 75 was a private venture by the company, designed by former Northrop Aircraft Company engineer Donovan Berlin.

From : wikipedia.org
The French got these from the USA..
 
One of the reasons why there weren't more of them was the cost; compared to an MS.406, an H-75 was not far off twice the price, if I remember rightly. That was the same argument which had prevented the Armee de l'Air from adopting the Spitfire as well - which in fact proved to be a wise decision, as Spitfire production would have gone to the RAF first, leaving the French a bit stuck.

The H-75 had a very good reputation with the French - easy to maintain, unlike the French designs, rugged, unlike..., able to absorb a great deal of punishment and with better manoeuverability than their German opponents. The only problem was that the initial production batch were horribly underarmed, with only four 7.5mm machine guns.

The H-75 was so well respected that it was the only fighter type deployed by the Vichy Air Force in North Africa, although the D.520 was regarded as the better fighter and was planned to replace the H-75 in due course.
 
I have been surprised By How few D 520's the French had in 1940..:icon_eek:

Too Be Honest I thought The French were not that far behind the Luftwaffe in numbers and types :banghead:
But seems Not..

By 10 May 1940, when Germany invaded France and the Low Countries, 228 D.520s had been manufactured, but the Armée de l'Air had only accepted 75, as most others had been sent back to the factory to be retrofitted to the new standard. As a result, only GC I/3 was fully equipped, having 36 aircraft.
 
HouseHobbit said:
I have been surprised By How few D 520's the French had in 1940..:icon_eek:

Too Be Honest I thought The French were not that far behind the Luftwaffe in numbers and types :banghead:
But seems Not..

By 10 May 1940, when Germany invaded France and the Low Countries, 228 D.520s had been manufactured, but the Armée de l'Air had only accepted 75, as most others had been sent back to the factory to be retrofitted to the new standard. As a result, only GC I/3 was fully equipped, having 36 aircraft.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed
13 May, GC I/3 = 36 D520 + 29 (20 May-22 June),
21 May, GC II/3 = 33 D520 + 21 (5 June-22 June),
30 May, GC II/7 = 35 D520 + 10 (15 June-26 June,
31 May, GC III/3 = 32 D520 + 13 (8 June-22 June),
16 June, GC III/6 = 30 D520 + 5 (17 June-22 June),
22 June, GC III/7 = 10 D520 + 14,
22 June GC II/6 = 10 D520,
25 June GC III/9 = 5 D520,
Aeronautic Air Force = 26 + 27 D520.

Production by 25 June 1940 = 467
In count : 403
France : 120
North Africa : 176
Killed : 107
Victory : 105
Pilots killed : 14
Prisonners : 6
Nomber of flight : 1650.
 
The P-36 was a fine aircraft for the mid 1930s but by 1940 it was a step behind being under armed and armored though thats not to say it wasn't still deadly. (Hey, P-26's got a couple of kills over Manila in 1941.) The Air Corp thought enough of the airframe to accept an up engined and faster version called the P-40. It should also be noted that the P-36 was numerically the most important Army fighter at Pearl Harbor and scored the first kill there not the P-40.

The P-39 and P-40 were good enough planes at low and medium altitude but were done in by lack of a turbocharger (ala the P-38) above 15,000 ft. The P-39 prototype did have a turbocharger. Both planes were a bit on the heavy side (armor, more guns, self sealing tanks) which raised their wing loading and which hurt them in turning fights, but helped in diving attacks. Of course their airframes were rock solid and that helped save many a pilot during the war.

The Buffalo? Well in the hands of British, Dutch, and American pilots it was outclassed by every Japanese fighter. It was even outclassed by its stablemate the F4F Wildcat. As for the Finns, I don't know if its success is more a case of the quality of the Finnish pilots or the quality of the opposition, but in either case there is no denying success.
 
...Great thread everyone. I also have always wondered why those French pilots that did so well with the H75 never seemed to receive adequate credit... Also didn't the Polish pilots fare rather surprisingly with that Renault powered 714 Cauldron? I fear this is one that will never be modeled for CFS3...
...but say Nigel, if possible could you post a screenie that would give us some idea of how far along Jon got on his P-36 in Gmax? I'd love to see it --Jon always has such a unique take on his stuff... (Master Pratt, I hope you're listening-):wavey:
 
HouseHobbit said:
The H-75 is just a P-36..Designed by good old American know how..
The French got these from the USA..
Click to expand...

Not disputing that fact. But please stop calling them P-36s for heaven's sake! Reversed throttles and different gauges and all that. Side note: some French pilots were killed much later in training accidents when they converted to conventional throttle setups.

Yes, the H-75 was just the beginning of an influx of imported aircraft. In addition to the V-156-F used by the Aeronavale (Vought SB2U Vindicator) and the Dutch Koolhoeven FK58 (even less memorable), plans were under way to purchase versions of the P-40 and some other light bombers. After the defeat, these were diverted to the UK. (Nigel would know them all by heart.) So, had the war been delayed by a year or two, we might have seen an interesting patchwork of aircraft over France. 10/10 for variety but minus a few for standardization.

@Led Zeppelin
Hello there! I'm head-down in course work at the moment but recently I fired up ETO and have been working my way through your Clostermann mission series. Excellent work there! Really top-notch write-ups with all the backstory and everything. Missions provide a nice progression through 43-45, not that I live through too many of them.
 
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