Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Well that was interesting! 
Monza..
- Thread starter Panther_99FS
- Start date
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
I'm glad that Lewis won.....
But man....Hard to believe Ferrari put Kimi in that tire situation...
But man....Hard to believe Ferrari put Kimi in that tire situation...
When the h*ll will Verstappen finally decide to learn? He could have finished 4th (even after his penalty), but instead he behaved (once again) like a butthead and ended up 5th...
I've checked some reactions, but not everybody shares your opinion. There are quite some remarks that there was still quite some room left for Bottas. Perhaps the fact that Danny Sullivan was one of the stewards again has something to do with it. And I do notice some inconsistency in the way penalties are applied.
You might think Verstappen is a butt head, but the people who hire him seem quite confident in his skills. So either you are wrong or they are.
At least Vettel can't say I didn't warn him!
Cheers,
Huub
And before you answer, I'm over 60 and you already made me aware of your opinion about people over 50.
Hey All,
I think the call on Max was petty arbitrary.
I am baffled by Ferrari. They have arguably better cars than Mercedes yet they seem to magically find ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Seems to me Ferrari just tries to race. Kimi fails to take care of his tires - they the left rear especially blistered fast it seemed to me. And vettel what the hey? At his age and over what 50 wins doesn't have an ounce of patience and doesn't know that the line he chose was bad ahead of time and that Lewis had the position? On the other hand Mercedes approaches a race with German precision as a battle in a campaign using every tool legal or not to their advantage - team orders (did bottas hold up Kimi?) phantom pit stop (did Mercedes pit crew slow kimis pit stop by not getting out of the way fast?). Strikes me as Totos way of operating.
Is it italian hotheadedness against German cool headed precision? If so it comes from above the drivers and it shows.
Of course red bull has no power and they have Daniel yet people pick on Max? Vettel has over 10 years experience on Max but do they criticize him as much?
And as for engineers I work with a bunch an they are amusing. One did admit to me that if their assumptions and initial parameters are wrong then they are wrong but with engineering precision - a wise engineer. To me my question about that halo strike was what hit it how hard and what would it have hit if the halo were not there and what damage would that have done potentially to a driver? It seems to me those are the common sense questions not this analysis with engineering precision about how much a tire missed the halo by. I too am over 60 so I'm not too bright by engineering standards either.
-Ed-
I think the call on Max was petty arbitrary.
I am baffled by Ferrari. They have arguably better cars than Mercedes yet they seem to magically find ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Seems to me Ferrari just tries to race. Kimi fails to take care of his tires - they the left rear especially blistered fast it seemed to me. And vettel what the hey? At his age and over what 50 wins doesn't have an ounce of patience and doesn't know that the line he chose was bad ahead of time and that Lewis had the position? On the other hand Mercedes approaches a race with German precision as a battle in a campaign using every tool legal or not to their advantage - team orders (did bottas hold up Kimi?) phantom pit stop (did Mercedes pit crew slow kimis pit stop by not getting out of the way fast?). Strikes me as Totos way of operating.
Is it italian hotheadedness against German cool headed precision? If so it comes from above the drivers and it shows.
Of course red bull has no power and they have Daniel yet people pick on Max? Vettel has over 10 years experience on Max but do they criticize him as much?
And as for engineers I work with a bunch an they are amusing. One did admit to me that if their assumptions and initial parameters are wrong then they are wrong but with engineering precision - a wise engineer. To me my question about that halo strike was what hit it how hard and what would it have hit if the halo were not there and what damage would that have done potentially to a driver? It seems to me those are the common sense questions not this analysis with engineering precision about how much a tire missed the halo by. I too am over 60 so I'm not too bright by engineering standards either.
-Ed-
Roxane-21
SOH-CM-2023
People over 60 often get more quiet when it comes to argue.
Yes, Max left plenty of room... on the grass! There were plenty of room there for Bottas to brake on the grass at 300+ kph, spin through first chicane runoff and do beautiful barrel rolls like Ericson did on Friday.
Nonetheless, I was not talking about his defensive move. That's dirty racing he is used to, but dirty drivers seems to be nowadays norm. I was referring to the fact he didn't want to let Bottas pass on the track, whereas resisting was useless after he got penalized. By doing this, he lost time, allowing Vettel to close the gap within less than 5sec and he lost one more position (and two more championship points).
Of course he has skills. The kid indeed is fast. But he has no brain. He will need to get one if he wants to fight for the championship one day. Vettel makes only a quarter of the amount of mistakes and misjudgements Max does, but he lost last year's title (and probably this year's as well) because of them.
Roxane-21
SOH-CM-2023
I'm glad to hear you finally agree 
. This picture shows the incident from a different angle. As you can see there is room between the front wheels and Bottas has not even crossed the white line. And there is at least the width of two tires left, before Bottas reaches the grass.
Concerning the fact he didn't let Bottas pass; Did it ever occur to you that he was perhaps so mad that he wanted to allow Vettel to pass him. Just to take revenge on Bottas and Mercedes? That would explain a lot I think....
Your comment about dirty racing really shows your age. Obviously you are not aware of the glorious day of Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet, Michael Schumacher Damon Hill and even Ayton Senna, they all had controversial crashes (and in those days nobody really cared).
Christian Horner was very subtle in his comment after the race..... "Whilst defending from the Mercedes into Turn 1 the stewards unfortunately judged that he didn’t quite leave enough space resulting in a five-second penalty dropping him from a finish position of P3 to P5."
Cheers,
Huub
. This picture shows the incident from a different angle. As you can see there is room between the front wheels and Bottas has not even crossed the white line. And there is at least the width of two tires left, before Bottas reaches the grass.
Concerning the fact he didn't let Bottas pass; Did it ever occur to you that he was perhaps so mad that he wanted to allow Vettel to pass him. Just to take revenge on Bottas and Mercedes? That would explain a lot I think....
Your comment about dirty racing really shows your age. Obviously you are not aware of the glorious day of Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet, Michael Schumacher Damon Hill and even Ayton Senna, they all had controversial crashes (and in those days nobody really cared).
Christian Horner was very subtle in his comment after the race..... "Whilst defending from the Mercedes into Turn 1 the stewards unfortunately judged that he didn’t quite leave enough space resulting in a five-second penalty dropping him from a finish position of P3 to P5."
Cheers,
Huub
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Ah yes.....
Who can forget the Prost/Senna.....Senna/Prost racing incidents......
Who can forget the Prost/Senna.....Senna/Prost racing incidents......
Roxane-21
SOH-CM-2023
Well, we could argue for days that this green area beyond the white line ("astroturf"?) is not part of the track, and could have been slippery if he had tried to brake there.
I started watching F1 in 1991 (I was 7).
I have never liked Schumacher for this exact same reason, the 'king of dirty racers'. And as much as I loved Senna I hated some parts of his on-track personnality.
But Mansell and Prost were quite correct while battling on track. Mansell was indeed sometimes brainless and unlucky, but that's part of his myth.
Indeed, back in those days, drivers often bumped wheels in the turns, but they never changed their line within the braking zone. This kind of defensive behaviour is by far the most dangerous thing you can do, unfortunately this is more and more used by young drivers who come almost directly from karting to F1. Sad, but this is the world we live in.
Look even further back, and consider Arnoux/Villeneuve batlle (1979 French GP, considered by many as the most epic battle in F1 history). Yes, they bumped wheels several times through the esses, but at the end of the long straight the defending driver (both Arnoux and Villeneuve) never changed his line and never closed the door.
I could mention Senna/Mansell battle at Barcelona in 1991 as well. Close racing all along the long straight, but both drivers held their line and this remainded a fair but pretty exciting battle.
Once again, I have no problem with drivers bumping wheels in turns, and I hate when drivers get penalties for such close racing incidents. But changing your line within the braking zone, when the attacking driver cannot do anything to react anymore, is the most dangerous thing you can do.
I hate when racing becomes blocking instead of being faster. Blocking such way is forbidden in Indycar, and IMHO that's why racing in Indycar is so much great.
I started watching F1 in 1991 (I was 7).
I have never liked Schumacher for this exact same reason, the 'king of dirty racers'. And as much as I loved Senna I hated some parts of his on-track personnality.
But Mansell and Prost were quite correct while battling on track. Mansell was indeed sometimes brainless and unlucky, but that's part of his myth.
Indeed, back in those days, drivers often bumped wheels in the turns, but they never changed their line within the braking zone. This kind of defensive behaviour is by far the most dangerous thing you can do, unfortunately this is more and more used by young drivers who come almost directly from karting to F1. Sad, but this is the world we live in.
Look even further back, and consider Arnoux/Villeneuve batlle (1979 French GP, considered by many as the most epic battle in F1 history). Yes, they bumped wheels several times through the esses, but at the end of the long straight the defending driver (both Arnoux and Villeneuve) never changed his line and never closed the door.
I could mention Senna/Mansell battle at Barcelona in 1991 as well. Close racing all along the long straight, but both drivers held their line and this remainded a fair but pretty exciting battle.
Once again, I have no problem with drivers bumping wheels in turns, and I hate when drivers get penalties for such close racing incidents. But changing your line within the braking zone, when the attacking driver cannot do anything to react anymore, is the most dangerous thing you can do.
I hate when racing becomes blocking instead of being faster. Blocking such way is forbidden in Indycar, and IMHO that's why racing in Indycar is so much great.
Countless times the green parts of the track were used by most riders, but this time it was suddenly too slippery . Sure, no reason to spend more words on this. But of course we Dutch are aware that the French do not always recognise the side of the track . (Viginie Cueff tries to push Laurine van Riessen over the boarding (Olympics 2016)).
Mansell and Prost correct riders? Just check YouTube and you can find dozens of clips where Prost and Senna use their car as a torpedo to push the other one out of the race. Especially Suzuka was their favorite as this was their common way to decide the championship. Prost was definitely good in dealing with cars faster than his. And a great tutor for Schumacher but despite all Micheal's efforts he never quite reached the level of Prost, to win the championship with one single crash.....
For Mansell's efforts check on the clashes between Mansell and Piquet in the late 80ties. They fought each other so hard and dirty during the whole season that in the end Prost took the Championship, despite the fact that Williams really could have been unbeatable these years.
In those days races were still clashes and quite epic. Luckily we seniors are old enough to remember
Cheers,
Huub
. Sure, no reason to spend more words on this. But of course we Dutch are aware that the French do not always recognise the side of the track . (Viginie Cueff tries to push Laurine van Riessen over the boarding (Olympics 2016)).
Mansell and Prost correct riders? Just check YouTube and you can find dozens of clips where Prost and Senna use their car as a torpedo to push the other one out of the race. Especially Suzuka was their favorite as this was their common way to decide the championship. Prost was definitely good in dealing with cars faster than his. And a great tutor for Schumacher but despite all Micheal's efforts he never quite reached the level of Prost, to win the championship with one single crash.....
For Mansell's efforts check on the clashes between Mansell and Piquet in the late 80ties. They fought each other so hard and dirty during the whole season that in the end Prost took the Championship, despite the fact that Williams really could have been unbeatable these years.
In those days races were still clashes and quite epic. Luckily we seniors are old enough to remember
Cheers,
Huub
wombat666
Administrator
Point of order.
At the Portuguese GP in 1988 Senna almost ran Prost into the pit counter, I well remember the sight of a Mexican Wave as all the pit boards flew into the air......confirming my suspicion that Senna would do anything to win.
His behavior at Monaco in his first year when he accused Jackie Icyx(?) of favoring Prost was a warning to me that he was not playing with a full deck.
1989 was the year it imploded for MacLaren, the agreement between Prost and Senna that first into the first corner had right of way collapsed at Imola, again thanks to Senna. Prost declared he would not give way (just like Alan Jones in 1981) to his 'team mate' and at Suzuka he held firm. Senna was penalised for driving the wrong way on the track in an effort to rejoin, NOT for driving into Prost.
Again at Suzuka, 12 months on, Senna simply drove straight into the Ferrari of Prost on lap 1 turn 1 ........... handing Senna another (devalued) WDC.
Despite much posturing and blathering from the FIA and Jean Marie Balestre Senna received no penalty and finally admitted to the truth several months later.
Any little enthusiasm remaining I had for Senna evaporated.
His off track behavior was 'poor', ie, punching Eddie Irvine post race for (again at Suzuka) daring to hold his line in a wet race being the last straw.
Some of Senna's race performances were simply epic, most were good while his failures were self inflicted.
His attitude signaled to a freshly minted Schumacher that anything goes on or off track, despite Schumacher being royally pissed when he was on the receiving end of a questionable Senna move.
Senna's move to Williams to get 'the car he was entitled too' was less than clever, as the car was a dog in the first incarnation.
I'll admit to actually cheering when Senna hit the wall at Imola........not very 'Christian' of me but something I really do not regret despite the passing of time.
Damon Hill showed true grit by driving the wheels of that car, winning in Spain(?) two races after Senna died, only for the obnoxious Schumacher taking him out of the Australian GP (I was right opposite that piece of bastardry) and taking up the 'If you can't beat them run the off the road' banner.
And so it goes today, allied with the ridiculous FIA 'technical' regulations and the inconsistency of race officials 'run them out of room' is SOP among the millennial's.
I never forget and rarely, if ever, forgive.
And a PS: Mansell was a buffoon who only 'won' a single WDC courtesy of Ricardo Patrese.
End of rant.
At the Portuguese GP in 1988 Senna almost ran Prost into the pit counter, I well remember the sight of a Mexican Wave as all the pit boards flew into the air......confirming my suspicion that Senna would do anything to win.
His behavior at Monaco in his first year when he accused Jackie Icyx(?) of favoring Prost was a warning to me that he was not playing with a full deck.
1989 was the year it imploded for MacLaren, the agreement between Prost and Senna that first into the first corner had right of way collapsed at Imola, again thanks to Senna. Prost declared he would not give way (just like Alan Jones in 1981) to his 'team mate' and at Suzuka he held firm. Senna was penalised for driving the wrong way on the track in an effort to rejoin, NOT for driving into Prost.
Again at Suzuka, 12 months on, Senna simply drove straight into the Ferrari of Prost on lap 1 turn 1 ........... handing Senna another (devalued) WDC.
Despite much posturing and blathering from the FIA and Jean Marie Balestre Senna received no penalty and finally admitted to the truth several months later.
Any little enthusiasm remaining I had for Senna evaporated.
His off track behavior was 'poor', ie, punching Eddie Irvine post race for (again at Suzuka) daring to hold his line in a wet race being the last straw.
Some of Senna's race performances were simply epic, most were good while his failures were self inflicted.
His attitude signaled to a freshly minted Schumacher that anything goes on or off track, despite Schumacher being royally pissed when he was on the receiving end of a questionable Senna move.
Senna's move to Williams to get 'the car he was entitled too' was less than clever, as the car was a dog in the first incarnation.
I'll admit to actually cheering when Senna hit the wall at Imola........not very 'Christian' of me but something I really do not regret despite the passing of time.
Damon Hill showed true grit by driving the wheels of that car, winning in Spain(?) two races after Senna died, only for the obnoxious Schumacher taking him out of the Australian GP (I was right opposite that piece of bastardry) and taking up the 'If you can't beat them run the off the road' banner.
And so it goes today, allied with the ridiculous FIA 'technical' regulations and the inconsistency of race officials 'run them out of room' is SOP among the millennial's.
I never forget and rarely, if ever, forgive.
And a PS: Mansell was a buffoon who only 'won' a single WDC courtesy of Ricardo Patrese.
End of rant.
Roxane-21
SOH-CM-2023
I watched this one live. I am not quite a fan of bicycle racing, but this was fun.But of course we Dutch are aware that the French do not always recognise the side of the track
I watched both 1994 Australian GP and 1997 European GP live, so you won't fool me on this one!
In 1986, the Williams dominated the season, but Prost was not far behind. Mansell and Piquet had to share points between each others since both were able to win (and they didn't crashed into each others so often during this season), whereas Prost was not challenged by his teamate and could score big points each time he could. And of course, Mansell was indeed unlucky when he blew a tyre during the last GP when is track position could allow him to be crowned. The Mansell/Piquet rivalry was dirty, but mostly with words, off track.
As I said before, I am not against drivers banging wheels in the turns at lower speed. But I can't stand the kind of maneuvers we saw at Monza. This kind of behaviour at high speed and/or in the braking zone is extremely dangerous, not only for the drivers but for the track marshalls as well, since cars are then likely to take off and land beyond the wall or into the catch fence, sending parts everywhere (see Monza 2000 or Melbourne 2001 accidents).
Back in the 70s or 80s, drivers never changed their line in the braking zone. They prefered trying to outbrake their rivals and resist into the turns. Drivers who were used to change their lines in the straights were highly criticized by their colleagues (see Riccardo Patrese).
I know you will argue that banging wheels can make cars do barrell rolls as well, but they do them at relatively lower speeds, and this is what roll bars are made for.