• There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.

    If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.

    Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.

    The Staff of SOH

  • Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

November 27, 1944

J

JDO3

Members +
I'm trying to look in to this huge battle to make a mission for ETO.
Basically, USAAF fighters simulated bombers and drew up a massive Luftwaffe defense, so they could engage. It worked a bit too well, and two gaggles of German planes (80-100 aircraft each) intercepted.
I'm looking for some more facts. Here's what I have so far.

American Groups consisted of:
352nd Fighter Group operating from RAF Bodney
353rd Fighter Group
357th Fighter Group operating from RAF Leiston

On Wikipedia (page for 357th Fighter Group) it has that P-47's were involved, but I haven't found anything about that.

German Groups consisted of:
I/JG 1
II/JG 1
I/JG 3
III/JG 26
I/JG 26
III/JG 27 - Bf-109?
IV/JG 27 - Bf-109?
IV/JG 54 - Fw-190A-8
I/JG 300 - Bf-109G-14
III/JG 300 - Bf-109G-14
IV/JG 300 - Bf-109G-14
Stab/JG 301 - Fw-190A-8
I/JG 301 - Fw-190A-9
II/JG 301 - Fw-190A-9

The Germans and Americans clashed 100 miles SW of Berlin, N of Leipzig.

Thats all I have. Any input would be appreciated.

-JDO3
 
Distinguished Service Cross
See more recipients of this award

Awarded for actions during the World War II

The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 9, 1918, takes pleasure in presenting a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster in lieu of a Second Award of the Distinguished Service Cross to Captain (Air Corps) Ray S. Wetmore (ASN: 0-675960), United States Army Air Forces, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving as Pilot of a P-51 Fighter Airplane in the 370th Fighter Squadron, 359th Fighter Group, EIGHTH Air Force, in aerial combat against enemy forces on 27 November 1944, during an air mission over Germany. On this date, Captain Wetmore was leader of a flight of four P-51 fighter aircraft on a fighter sweep mission over north central Germany. During the mission he sighted three formations of enemy aircraft, totaling more than 200 FW 190's and Me-109's. With total disregard for his own personal safety, Major Wetmore tracked the hostile fighters, radioing their positions, altitude and course to his nearby fighter group. Supporting fighters failed to arrive, and Major Wetmore, ignoring the fact of the overwhelming odds of 200 to 2, chose to attack three of the enemy aircraft in the air. The action of Major Wetmore on this occasion was a clear demonstration of the willful selection of the more hazardous of two acceptable and honorable courses of action, since his withdrawal from the combat under such overwhelmingly unfavorable circumstances would certainly have been acceptable. Captain Wetmore's unquestionable valor in aerial combat is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflects great credit upon himself, the 8th Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces.

General Orders: Headquarters, U.S. Army Air Forces in Europe, General Orders No. 168 (1945)

Action Date: 27-Nov-44

Service: Army Air Forces

Rank: Captain

Company: 370th Fighter Squadron

Regiment: 359th Fighter Group

Division: 8th Air Force
 
Silver Star
See more recipients of this award

Awarded for actions during the World War II

The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress July 9, 1918, takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star to Captain (Air Corps) John B. England (ASN: 0-739263), United States Army Air Forces, for gallantry in action as a Pilot of the 362d Fighter Squadron, EIGHTH Air Force, while participating in a fighter sweep over Germany, on 27 November 1944. Sighting a formation of approximately fifty hostile fighters, Captain England unhesitatingly led his Flight to the attack. By skillful maneuvering, he gained the initial advantage of surprise and was successful in destroying two FW-190s. Having become separated from the rest of his Flight, he never-the-less exhibited utter disregard for personal danger by engaging alone another large force of enemy aircraft. Although only three of his guns were now operational, he pressed home his attack with such forceful determination that he was able to shoot down two more enemy planes before withdrawing. Captain England's gallantry and zealous desire to destroy the enemy at all costs served as an inspiration to all who participated in this action.

General Orders: Headquarters, 8th Air Force, General Orders No. 66 (May 8, 1945)

Action Date: 27-Nov-44

Service: Army Air Forces

Rank: Captain

Company: 362d Fighter Squadron

Division: 8th Air Force
 
The Jagdverbände made three concerted attempts to attack Eighth Air Force bombers between 21 November and 27 November 1944, and on the last generated an estimated 750 fighter sorties, the largest defensive reaction of the war. The three fighter wings of the Eighth used a tactical ruse to score a significant victory. Assigning 13 groups to a fighter-bomber mission, P-51s and P-47s simulated heavy bomber formations while other P-51s flew escort patterns above them. The resulting radar contact triggered the heavy fighter reaction near Magdeburg, and the force was directed towards them by a microwave early warning (MEW) site ("Nuthouse") at Gulpen, Netherlands.
In the 66th Fighter Wing, the 353d and 357th Fighter Groups engaged approximately 200 Fw 190s of JG 300 and JG 301, with the 353d downing 22 and the 357th, 30 in the ensuing combats. Captain Leonard K. "Kit" Carson, on the 38th mission of his second tour and having nine previous credits, became the second 357th pilot to become an "ace in a day", while Yeager and Capt John B. England claimed four kills each.[22] One week later, on 5 December, the 357th escorted 3rd Division bombers to Berlin and encountered 100 more German fighters, claiming 22 against a loss of two
 
Just to make life even more interesting, each Gruppe could be using several types of Bf109 concurrently - the supply situation was totally chaotic at the time, and the nomenclature of certain types of Bf109g had become almost meaningless. For example a Bf109g-14 is effectively the same as a late Bf109g-6, unless it is fitted with an AS engine, in which case it is virtually identical to the g-6AS or even g-10AS, but different from the g-10ASM... In other words, a typical Gruppe could be flying a mixture of late-production g-5 and g-6, g-5/6AS, g-14, g-14AS and by November 1944 would have been receiving or about to receive k-4s, which entered service a few days before the g-10... Not to mention the mess around GM-2 and MW50 power boost...

But to be honest, if you use essentially g-14s, you'll be about right.

JG 27 was flying Bf109gs at this time - it never flew any other type than the 109 as far as I know.

Feel free to use any of the DL or DR2 Bf109s as you wish!
 
Subject to caution, but:

I/JG 1 - FW190a-8
II/JG 1 - FW190a-8
I/JG 3 - Bf109g
III/JG 26 - Bf109g
I/JG 26 - FW190a-8
 
Thanks

Hey, Thanks for all the input.

I think that I'll just do the combat with 353rd and 357th Fight Groups against JG 300 and JG 301. I can't find JG 300 or JG 301 airbase info - can anyone give me that?

Or could someone inform me on how to set up spawns (I haven't been able to do that kind of thing right...)

JDO3
 
Ok. I'll start building now, unless I can get this one last piece of info.

Are there repaints of 353rd FG P-51's, 357th FG P-51's, JG 300 Bf-109's/Fw-190's, and JG 301 Fw-190's?
 
JDO3 said:
Ok. I'll start building now, unless I can get this one last piece of info.

Are there repaints of 353rd FG P-51's, 357th FG P-51's, JG 300 Bf-109's/Fw-190's, and JG 301 Fw-190's?
Click to expand...

There are g-10s of JGs 300 and 301, but not g-14s. If you can give me a few days, there's no reason why you can't have a special JG 300 g-14. If you can find a photo of one, it would make life even easier - the Reichsverteidigung band should be blue-white-blue for JG 300 and yellow-red for JG 301 at that date. I don't have the necessary to run off an FW 190a. Having said that, if you use Dancat's beautiful a-8 (which you really should) then there is already a JG 301 scheme available, although the bands appear to be inverted; normally the yellow band is to the fore for JG 301. As E.Gr. KG 51 (J.) used red-yellow bands with red to the fore on Me410s...
 
1./JG 300 - hypothetical I admit. For once I have utterly failed to find a photo. The problem is that you have a window of perhaps two or three months between the introduction of the blue and white bands in October - and they won't have been painted on immediately, either - and the attrition of the Bf109g-14s in service. As they were replaced essentially by g-10 and k-4 aircraft, which did wear the blue and white RVT bands, there are not that many photos...
 
November 27, 1944
I'm trying to look in to this huge battle to make a mission for ETO.
Click to expand...
could someone inform me on how to set up spawns
Click to expand...
basically just spawn a couple hundred German aircraft so that I won't have to have them loitering while the Americans come to attack them
Click to expand...

The concept of a mission this size has intrigued me. Especially the idea of using spawns for the German aircraft. So I made a short simple mission to test the spawn idea.

I have three us flights of 8, 2 flights of P51D's and 1 of P47D25's, facing six spawned German flights of 8 with a mixture of BF109G10's and FW190A8's giving a ratio of 2:1.

Talk about a Furrball!!:isadizzy:

JD03's mission concept is BIG and I would be happy to help in any way I can.:cool:
PM me if you would like see what I have.
 
I have built several missions which have over 200 aircraft involved..

It is best to use AI aircraft for everything except the Players Birds..
This many aircraft tend to slow down even the fastest computers if you try to use all full model Birds and not AI birds..

I have ran as many as 240 aircraft in a mission, all fighters, 120 american and 120 german
and once you engage the swarm is gets really crazy..

Without building AI's as needed I could not have done this..

Most computer will run really slow FPS or even Lock during these battles if you don't Model AI birds for this..

***********
Nothing lower then a 2 gig CPU and a 512 video card with at least 2 gig of DDR ram is needed to run a mission like this, Just a warning..Once you get above 100 birds at one time in a mission you need a fast computer to handle it..
***********
 
all i can say after having made for me and his owrk on a ton of missions and all in many updates in here soh .....hobbit has great work and achievement on large projetcs as youve laid out .


all you have to do is review all the missions large small and for simming community ...and without a doubt youll learn grow and enrich your simming experience .


im just a dumb old simmer ...who flys these


lb/joshua

hobbit for president
 
ndicki said:
1./JG 300 - hypothetical I admit. For once I have utterly failed to find a photo. The problem is that you have a window of perhaps two or three months between the introduction of the blue and white bands in October - and they won't have been painted on immediately, either - and the attrition of the Bf109g-14s in service. As they were replaced essentially by g-10 and k-4 aircraft, which did wear the blue and white RVT bands, there are not that many photos...
Click to expand...

Thanks so much ndicki. Where can I find these?

Thanks to all for their help.
 
But Joshua, there is a height requirment..

I think you have to be over 5 ft. tall to be president...
Bummer...

Thanks very much... :jump:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top