Odd behaviour of ACs

arfyhun

SOH-CM-2024
Greetings all,

I have a new P.C. and cannot find my CFS1 disc presently, so the game is 'parked' for now.

There is one question I would like to ask, if I may.

I have a few aeroplanes (one I can remember is a Fairey Battle, but no more info), that when loaded as enemy A/Cs in QuickCom, describe large vertical circles as they approach.

Methinks it must be due to the way the A/Cs were made but I'm just interested if anyone else has met the same style of 'formation flying'.

Many thanks in advance for your time,

Graham Sullivan. arfyhun.
 
Yes indeed!

Greetings all,

I have a new P.C. and cannot find my CFS1 disc presently, so the game is 'parked' for now.

There is one question I would like to ask, if I may.

I have a few aeroplanes (one I can remember is a Fairey Battle, but no more info), that when loaded as enemy A/Cs in QuickCom, describe large vertical circles as they approach.

Methinks it must be due to the way the A/Cs were made but I'm just interested if anyone else has met the same style of 'formation flying'.

Many thanks in advance for your time,

Graham Sullivan. arfyhun.

Hi arfyhun (this pseudo you will have to explain to me... I'm not even sure how to pronounce it!:icon_lol:)!

A/C react according to their flight dynamics coupled with the AI engine. I can't be specific about your Battle, but I know for a fact that no two models aircraft are acting the same.

When I build aircraft or ground objects, I always submit them to the "gauntlet"; nine P-47D in offensive position having their ways with my poor models until they go poof!

Why P-47D? Simply because they behave "sensibly"; they strafe me like they should and, if they don't kill me, they keep strafing. Fw 190A will ram you 50% of the time. Spits, P-51D and Hurricanes will take forever to mount an attack - you will die of old age before they shoot at you.

Many things do influence their behaviors. Have you ever noticed that, in Mission or Campaigns, all the Luftwaffe seems only interested by you sometimes?

Even more oddly; a/c will react differently if you emit smoke under certain circumstances! In one case, I have found a certain combination in the DP file that makes P-47D uninterested by you!

The "best" AIR file for AI is not always the same for flyable ones; just ask Ivan about his suicidal Fw 190:jump:.

Or try to fly "non-flyable" stock a/c with their originals AIR files; some can't even get off the ground!

When I'm working on the flight dynamics of an a/c, I test it most of the time as an AI a/c as well. I have an Albatros DIII that does a very convincing "dead leaf" maneuver; it will go in a stall as if it was out of control, let you pass over, regain control while under you, and shoot you in the belly! This is a "by the book" WWI maneuver btw...:kilroy:
 
Thank you hubbabubba for taking the time to explain my curiosity so completely. I only have two ACs as I remember which perform that way, (the other is a WWI jobby), so I really have no cause to complain.

My name is a compression of 'Ar Fy Hun', (spoken; 'ARE VUH HEEN', with a slightly gutteral H). It's Welsh (Cymraig) for; On My Own.
Instead of Hun, you could use Hunau, which is pronounced Heenai. A longer version is; ar ei ben ei hun; (by himself, alone). I'm starting to wonder, out of the two of us, who is now wishing they hadn't asked/answered the question!

Many thanks again hubbabubba for the swift answer. I have questions aplenty to ask re. CFS1 but right now I think I'll just have a lie down.....

Regards,

Graham. London
 
(...)

My name is a compression of 'Ar Fy Hun', (spoken; 'ARE VUH HEEN', with a slightly gutteral H). It's Welsh (Cymraig) for; On My Own.
Instead of Hun, you could use Hunau, which is pronounced Heenai. A longer version is; ar ei ben ei hun; (by himself, alone). I'm starting to wonder, out of the two of us, who is now wishing they hadn't asked/answered the question!

(...)

Graham. London

On the contrary, arfyhun! Tonight, I will go to bed less stupid as we say here!:icon_lol:

And I'm sure others will do too...:kilroy:
 
I guess I am also a little less stupid tonight. Thanks for the explanation. I always have problems when we see the typical Roman alphabet used with different pronunciations. Chinese Pinyin also bothers me.

Regarding the Fairey Battle, does the aircraft loop continuously? If so, it is probably because the author of the AIR file (flight parameters) didn't take the time to check the angle of incidence of the stabilizer. (I believe this is Record 1205.) If the stabilizer's angle of incidence is a couple degrees down, it will make the aircraft tail heavy. At low speeds, this will make the aircraft fly with neutral trim, but at higher speeds, the downforce changes and often its changes with speed are faster than the AI (or autopilot) can adjust the trim to compensate.

Human pilots basically can change how they react to adjust for the aircraft's peculiarities. AI pilots only know one way to respond and if the aircraft doesn't react exactly as expected, they are entirely lost.

Hubbabubba mentioned my FW 190A. I tuned it to have a VERY high roll rate on the order of 150 degrees per second. I put a lot of damping to stop the roll when controls are neutralised. The control curves are adjusted so that at small deflections control effect is very small. (That allows for higher precision.) At high deflections, control effect is huge and non linear in rate. The aileron control effect in Record 1101 is also VERY high.

All this makes for an easy airplane for a human to fly. I believe that the AI only sees the aileron control effect and only uses full deflection of controls applied for short intervals. This doesn't work with my aircraft because a full deflection will kick the plane into an extremely high rate roll which then causes the AI to apply full opposite deflection which stops the roll but starts an opposite direction high speed roll.......

I don't know for sure this is the case, but it fits with the observed results.

FWIW, Just about all the stock CFS1 flight models are horrible. Generally I just pick the stock P-51D flight model and start changing parameters to match the plane I am working on.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

Yes, the ACs loop all the time as they fly along. I cannot remember now if they maintain a head up or horizontal attitude as they advance. I think it could be the former, although I think some manage to collide as well. Saves me ammo I suppose.

When I find my disc, (I've just been up in the attic today on my fruitless quest), I'll do a reload and add the 1939-40 theatre to get me 'up and staggering' (the best that can be done at my age). Then I'll almost know what I'm talking about.

I've copied all your replies so a 'delve into the dark with instructions' will befall me if and when the disc surfaces.

Funny enough I was going to change the airfile for a similar one, but changing the P.C. beat me to it.

Many thanks all. I can certainly say I'll be going to bed less stupid tonight as well!

Nos Da, Graham.
 
If you are just looking for a CFS CD, just order one off Amazon or eBay. It might save you some aggravation. I have multiple installations in my house and now I have at least one original CD for every one. The cost was pretty minimal for the last one I ordered: $8 and Shipping which worked out to about $10 or so delivered. It is now an Atari product if I remember right.

- Ivan.
 
Greetings again chaps, I have found the Fairey Battle I mentioned in my original question. I have posted the .air file to show it would be impossible to edit 'as-is'. Do I need extra software to do so? Also, am I 'treading on anybody's feet', to use an expression, by posting this file? I don't want to break any observed conventions. If so please delete this reply.

Many thanks, arfyhun.


  Fairey Battle   N0292M  º Length; 42ft 1 3/4 in.
Wing span; 54 ft Weight; 10,793 lb max Speed; 210 mph at sea level max
Power RR Merlin III 1,035hp at takeoff

Fairey Battle K9182, of No. 226 (B) Squadron
Based at Rheims, France, from September 1939 until May 1940. No.226
Squadron was part of the Advanced Air Striking Force. This aircraft is typical of the hard-working Battles that bore the brunt of the attacks on the advancing German forces in France and Belgium.
Details
Designer; Jerry Arzdorf Date 12/17/96
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As A Matter Of Fact...

...I have posted the .air file to show it would be impossible to edit 'as-is'. Do I need extra software to do so? ...

Yep, you need AirEdit.exe:

http://desktopaviator.tripod.com/Programs/Utility/Air_Edit/

Once you have it installed, it's fairly easy to get the hang of. But PLEASE back up any AIR file you're gonna work with before you mod it, for "Just In Case"...

And, once you learn this program, grab up AirWrench from Jerry Beckwith's MudPond page - LOTS of tinkering to be done with THAT one !

Best :wavey:
SC
:kilroy:

NOTE: The latest version of AirEdit is 1.52 - I just uploaded it with Rami's blessing to the CFS2 Utilities section.
 
It might be a good idea to post the entire aircraft so that we can see how the whole package fits together. Regarding AIR file editors, I use both AirEd and FDE. Each program has its own strengths and weaknesses. Neither one works well on arrays, so I wrote up a couple C programs to translate from a CSV spreadsheet file to the binary version which I can then paste in using AirEd. Graphing in a spreadsheet lets me confirm that the curves are more or less smooth.

AirED only works with predefined types. There are some values that don't really fit any of the predefined types. FDE isn't able to delete and copy records.

- Ivan.
 
(...)

AirED only works with predefined types. There are some values that don't really fit any of the predefined types. FDE isn't able to delete and copy records.

- Ivan.

Not sure I understand what you mean by "predefined types".:confused:
 
Hi Hubbabubba,

Do you remember way back when we were trying to figure out what the unit was for the offset of the Cockpit POV? It turned out to be 1/512 of a Metre. Try representing that with AirEd. I don't believe that you can. With FDE, you can do it because you can specify a multiplier.

- Ivan.
 
Hi Hubbabubba,

Do you remember way back when we were trying to figure out what the unit was for the offset of the Cockpit POV? It turned out to be 1/512 of a Metre. Try representing that with AirEd. I don't believe that you can. With FDE, you can do it because you can specify a multiplier.

- Ivan.

At the risk of showing the extent of my ignorance, I'm still puzzled by your comments. Do you mean that FDE is capable of a higher precision in determining length data?

If you could give me an example of FDE vs. AirEd with actual numbers, this could help. Since I rarely use FDE, the "specify a multiplier" portion is leaving me panting.:icon_eek:
 
Hi Hubbabubba,

Let's take the example of the cockpit viewpoint. I am working on an airplane that has a POV that is 27.5 inches above the CoG. You have probably noticed that you often can't specify the exact number you want in either AIR file editor. The values will come close, but there is a quantum step you can't get below. It will hit only the closest step.

In this case,
FDE gives me 27.52830 inches
AirEd gives me 27.5279 inches

Remember that some time back we calculated that the formula for calculating SCASM offsets was:

Inches * 25.4 / 1000 * 512 = SCASM Offset
For FDE, we get 358.00003584 Units
For AirEd, we get 357.99483392 Units

It is pretty obvious what the value should be: 358 Units, but I know which one is closer.

This is from AirEd.INI (Courtesy of Jerry Beckwith) This is the best version I have found.
; Valid types are...
; record, BOOL, int8, int16, int32, double, text, thrust, 16pct,
; fwgt, m256 ang16, aspd, mach, prpm, tbl16, tbldb, tbl3d
; Binary conversion factors for data types:
; 16pct, fwgt, m256
; i16/16384 i16/256 i16/6.5025
; ang16, aspd, mach, prpm,
; i16/182, i32/128, i32/20480, i16*15/32
[301]
1=00,m256,*Cockpit View Right+/Left- CoG (inches)
1h=Pilots' view point from the center of the aircraft to one side.
2=02,m256,*Cockpit View Above+/Below- CoG (inches)
2h=Pilots' view point from the center of gravity up.
3=04,m256,*Cockpit View Fore+/Aft- CoG (inches)
3h=Pilots' view point from the center of gravity fore/aft.
4=06,int32,*CoG Height From Ground
4h=Height for initial loading|Gear Length * 1600 for Light AC - * 1800 for Heavy AC ?
5=0A,ang16,*Fuselage Angle
5h=Fuselage angle for initial loading|Neg angle for Pos pitch on ground

This is from FDECtrl.txt
301,,301 Fuselage,Header,1
301,0,Cockpit View Right+/Left- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,2,Cockpit View Above+/Below- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,4,Cockpit View Fore+/Aft- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,6,C of G above Ground,Integer4,1
301,10,Fuselage Angle,Integer2,182

Now here is where life gets really interesting:

Note that SCASM offets are 1/512 meter. AIR File offsets are only 1/256 meter, so we only get even offsets in SCASM if we use AIR File values.

If we use the formula specified above for calculating SCASM Offsets, we get 13.0048 for 1/512 meter. For 1/256 meter in the AIR file, we get half that or 6.5024 which is the exact divisor we specified in FDECtrl.txt. For AirEd.INI, the internal conversion is apparently 6.5025, which is close, but not exact and we can't do a thing about it.

For this task, it isn't a very big problem. Now if I wanted to do things in Metric instead of inches, All I really need to do in FDE is to alter the conversion factor to something like 1/512 but for AirEd, I can't do a thing. Perhaps I want the value in Feet instead of Inches to match what I see in AF99. This is also trivial for FDE, but impossible for AirEd.....

;-)
- Ivan.
 
Greetings all and thank you for your comments. Opened a can of worms 'ere it seems. I'm having a bit of trouble adding the files to the 'Manage Attachments' box. When I drag the A/C folder into it I R/X a list that I can do nothing with. When I close the box they disappear.

Any help most gratefully accepted.

Going bonkers slowly, (but speeding up nicely),

Graham. London.
 
Greetings again all, have Dwnld both aired & fdeditor.

With aired (CFS1 is on my old HD, now 'F' on the new kit), I have tried to 'drag and drop' the Battle air file to the 'C' drive, which causes aired to announce it has got a problem and closes immediately. Putting aired into the Aircraft folder where the Fairey Battle lives and trying that way, clicking; file/Open (showing inside the Battle's folder)/clicking on the air file, also brings up the dreaded 'AirEd AIR file editor has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience'. Clicking 'Debug' drops aired out.

Opening the 'Manage Attachments' section, I can add the Battle.air file but a black cross and 'invalid file' icon appear.

fdeditor, when in positions, C;Desktop, F;Aircraft folder and F;Fairey Battle folder, messages it is unable to locate FS2002, CFS1 etc. without giving me an option of pointing it towards the correct location, as is in the help notes.

I know I'm doing a lot of things wrong, anybody out there knows which ones they are?

Many thanks all in advance,

Graham.
 
:wavey:arfyhun,

Zip your AIR file and email it to me. My email address is under my profile.

I don't know what's wrong with AirEd, but something is. Have you tried with different AIR files?

On that; Happy New Year!
 
Greetings Ivan,

tried your clue and using 'aired' with other .air files I can 'drag and drop' O.K. Looks like the Battle .air file is the problem.

'fdeditor' still only wants to see the normal progression to CFS1, no search capabilities offered.

just posted the contents of the A/C folder to you. My mail provider wouldn't let me post the whole thing. I'm desperately trying to find the '.zip' file in my records, but it is a 'no-show' as a stand-alone A/C. I'm checking the mission zips presently to see it it's packaged in one of them.

Will update you if I get lucky.

Many thanks again mate,

Bleddyn Newydd DDa, as was said more than 1,000 years ago in our great land.

Graham. arfyhun.
 
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