P-51 pilot Bruce Carr steals a FW-190 to get home

[airtj]

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40206

 

[n4gix]

...and if you follow all the threads, you'll learn that the story is just that; a story...

...about an event that never happened.

 

[hubbabubba]

Nope n4gix, the story is not apocryphal (or bull... in layman's terms).

http://www.rb-29.net/html/50FtrPltStory/FtrPltStory/50.01.00.htm

I've seen even stranger stories.

Here, as a cross-reference, the same story in different words; http://www.aviationartstore.com/bruce_carr_2.htm


... and if you're still unconvinced, make your own search with WWII American aces, the name Bruce Carr is sure to pop-up... with the FW-190 story at least mentioned. Why would a prankster use a real pilot's name? And why this pilot, or person who've known him (he is deceased), would refrain from "debunking" the story?

 

[Bomber_12th]

As Bill states, it is just a story, that never happened the way it has been told. Obviously the made up story read better in the papers and in books, and is still repeated to this day - likely having attributes added over time, and morphing out of control since its original telling - from whom no one seems to know it originally came from, though it was very likely Carr himself. Bruce Carr was of course a tremendously skilled combat pilot, who proudly fought for our country, and was by all accounts, quite the 'character'.

The fact of the matter is, is that by the time the actual incident happened, it was right around VE-Day, and the 354th FG was in Germany by this time, on occupation-duty. Many of the pilots past the time by scrounging up German vehicles and aircraft they could get their hands on. For example, Maj. Jim Dalglish, C.O. of the 353rd FG, had his very own Fw 190. As can be backed up by other members of the 354th FG who were there (Kelly Gross, Cary Salter, Ken Dahlberg, etc.), Bruce Carr decided he wanted an Fw 190 for himself, and thereby hitchhiked to a German airfield near Linz, Austria where he found a flyable Fw 109. As prearranged, a flight of 353rd FS P-51Ds arrived overhead to escort Carr and his prize-possession back to the 354th FG's base at Ansbach. Unfortunately Carr couldn't get the gear down and ended up belling it in. After this incident, the practice of flying German aircraft (by those not relegated to do so) was banned.

This information was compiled together by historians including Jack Cook and Steve Blake, through talking with the men who were there. Steve Blake's book on the 354th FG, tells of this event as it really happened. Fighter Ace Association's Frank Olynyk has Bruce Carr's 'Form 5', and on the page for May 1945, the flight is listed for May 8th. The 354th FG actually flew it's last combat mission of WWII before Carr flew the 190.
(Also the airfield in Linz where Carr took off from was occupied by British troops...)

Here's another good video of Bruce Carr, this time with his mount, "Angels Playmate": http://www.criticalpast.com/video/6...ce_P-51-planes_insignia-on-plane_World-War-II

 

[hubbabubba]

mmmmm....

The problem here, as I see it, is that "evidence" is somewhat blurred by the "WWW effect"; stories have a tendency to be rehash versions.

The "its a false story" version appeared much later than the "its a true story" version. Why would Carr risk his reputation?

Even the dates and details don't match. Carr, according to the "true" version, stole the a/c from a field in Czechoslovakia (Pilsen probably) as he was half-way through his final tally (7.5 at the time). The "false" version talks of event happening post-war from an airfield in Linz, Austria, when Carr, I assumed, had finished shooting German a/c...

Was there two events? Steeling an aircraft from a British-occupied airfield sounds as fishy as the "true" version. As for the pictures, re-enactment was common place in these days.

 

[alain95]

Whatever the truth is, these stories are interesting and make a good subject for a repaint.
As I'm used to in CFS3. I will follow this thread if anyone can bring new proof elements.

Thank you
View attachment 34130

 

[Bomber_12th]

I would welcome anyone to research and report the date in which he was shot down, or to show his MACR and his escape and evasion report, or at least one 354th FG member who will say it wasn't a planned event. This isn't my personal vendetta or agenda or anything of the sort, but those are the questions/requests put forward by those who tell of the 'debunked story'.

Jim Edwards, another 354th FG ace, is quoted as saying -
"That story's so full of holes you could fly a 51 through it!"

According to historian Steve Sheflin -

"The story of Bruce Carr “stealing” an Fw 190 and escaping from behind enemy lines is patently untrue. In AIRFOIL #2, Steve Blake and I published a short article debunking this apocryphal story. As part of his research, Steve Blake spoke to Col. Felix Kozaczka, one of Carr’s wingmen, who was present during the flight and belly landing. Kozaczka told him in no uncertain terms that the more lurid aspects of this story never occurred. Like many pilots after the war, Carr wanted to fly a German plane. Carr hitchhiked to Linz, Austria, where he chose the now-well-known Fw 190 A-6/A-8 hybrid, “31+ ~ Red” for his mount. After flying back to Ansbach with an escort of 354th FG P-51s, Carr couldn’t get the 190’s gear down and was forced to belly land it on the grass at Ansbach. Post-crash photos of Carr show him walking around unhurt and wearing a neat, clean uniform—hardly the look of someone who had just evaded capture and flown a stolen Focke-Wulf to freedom [with the addition of wearing a parachute the whole time?]. I can’t believe that this story won’t just die and go away. Heroes like Bruce Carr don’t deserve to be tarred with lurid tales like this. Their real-life experiences should be more than enough for anyone." - Steve Sheflin

Steve Blake, Steve Sheflin, Col. Felix Kozaczka, all of these individuals have extremely reputable reputations.


Concerning the Fw 190 that Bruce Carr found and flew back to Ansbach, this was posted by a German-aircraft researcher on the Hyperscale forum a while back-

"A very good article about this aircraft was published by Steve Blake and Steve Sheflin in Sheflin’s “Airfoil” magazine that included photos from his and Jim Crow’s collections, two of which are in colour (“The Case of the ‘Stolen’ Fw 190!”, Airfoil, Vol.1, No.2, Spring 1984, pp.30-31.)

Red 31 + ~ is certainly an A-6 that was given a new power-egg, canopy and A-8 wings to create this recycled hybrid. The designation stays with the fuselage and so it would be nice to get confirmation via a good view of the tail and get a Werknummer.

Camouflage is rather mixed given its hybrid status. The wings appear to be in the standard 74/75 greys as is the fuselage back to the tail unit. The tail is certainly a replacement was a base coat of a lightened version of 76 with a mottle of 83 dark green. These tails are seen on a number of Fw 190 F-8s that were themselves recycled aircraft from older and/or damaged types. The power egg and forward gun panel appear to be overall 83 as seen in the colour shots. There might be a bit of 83 applied here and there in an attempt to unify the overall scheme.

The aircraft invariably came from I./EKG(J) - Ergängzungkampfgeschwader (Jagd) / reserve or replacement training bomber wing (fighter) and was originally stationed at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. From there, it was flown to the west ahead of the Russian advance, being abandoned at Linz, Austria where Carr found it.

The use of such a hybrid kite makes perfect sense for the unit and period of the war. I had pegged that Red 31 was an EKG(J) aircraft about ten years ago while studying an Fw 190 D-9 with a similar code and markings (“Red 18 + ~”, WNr.211115 found at Pilsen in May 1945). Indeed, the fact that there were many aircraft types associated with the unit was an immediate tip-off that this was a rag-tag unit that grabbed whatever aircraft they could and got them into operational status."
- David E. Brown

 

[Smashing Time]

A read through this thread should answer any questions about this whale tale.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4186

 

[hubbabubba]

Sorry for the delay, but I had some digging to do.

First, as most of the arguments of the "it is BS" faction are centered around the AIRFOIL article (Airfoil No.2, Spring 1984, pages 30-31), I had to find and read it first, which I did.

It is not without surprise that I discovered that Steve Blake and S.W. Sheflin, the co-authors of that piece, never communicated with the main character involved in it; Carr himself! As a former prosecution lawyer, I would never come to a conclusion without listening or reading all testimonies. Likewise, a journalist should always refrain from publishing something controversial unless he can say that the main characters involved have been reached to comment before publication. Their reasons for not doing so are:

"We want to make it very clear however, that we are not suggesting that Bruce Carr has ever had anything to do with fostering any of the more creative versions of this story. Mr. Carr is a very private person who would never stoop to making up such a nonsense."

Bruce W. Carr, a retired Colonel, was still well alive and kicking in 1984 and was not living as an hermit under a rock. A few months before his death in 1998, he was still flying a real two-seats P-51D christened "Angels' Playmate" in his honor. He would go to pilots' reunions, and talk to anyone who wanted to talk to him. Short of being able to talk to Carr (I'm a former lawyer, not a former psychic...), I went for the next best thing; I emailed Sir Ernie Hamilton Boyette, a well-known artist specialized in aviation paintings who had received command of a painting From Lee Lauderback (a.k.a Mister Mustang) with a profile of the P-51D "Angels' Playmate", FT I, #44-63497. Here is an excerpt of his answer to my query:

"Bruce told the story that I wrote but there were some holes in his story since I only got to talk to him once.
The next form of interview was through Lee and his friends. Carr had been hospitalized.
Lee and his friends where visiting Carr ever day.
They got some questions answered for me plus they got Carr to approve the story for the print.
I was to publish his print in two days, but before the print was released, Carr passed away."

So, literally on his dying bed, Carr was still standing behind his story. But what story was he standing by? Here is what Blake and Sheflin pretended to "debunk";

"The story has been told in several versions, but most contend that late in April, Carr was shot down somewhere in Austria. After hiding from enemy troops who were searching for him, he started walking toward neutral Switzerland and safety. He would hide during the day and travel cautiously during the night. In one telling of the story, the starving Carr is described as killing and eating a chicken raw., fearing the fire and smell of cooking would draw attention. One night he heard aircraft sounds, and snuck up on a Luftwaffe base loaded with aircraft. After much deliberation, the desperate Carr hit upon the idea of stealing a plane and flying it to freedom. After carefully timing the passings of the one guard (this is wartime, you know!), he snuck onto the field and into the closest plane. After quickly looking over the foreign instrument panel, Carr figured out how to start the plane and did so. After hauling this strange fighter into the air, he determined the correct heading home (in the dark, in a strange plane yet). Arriving over his Group's base at Ansbach, Carr then couldn't get the landing gear down and was forced to belly land the craft."

I understand that the "several versions" they're referring to were paper versions. Internet was still in its infancy in 1984. But it is rather strange to see that the "debunked version" never made it to the web! I have perused through a dozen or so versions on Internet, none is placing the events in April or May 1945, none is placing the 354th FG base at Ansbach, and none is saying that the snatched Fw 190 was at Linz. Don't take my word for it, do your own search.

The story approved by Carr and written by Sir Ernie Hamilton Boyette, that you can find HERE , places the events around November 2, 1944. The 354th base was, at the time, at Orconte (A-66) in France, as duly noted. The Luftwaffe airbase was in Czechoslovakia. Other sources are situating that base near Pilsen.

When it comes to the absence of reports, be reminded that absence of evidence is no evidence. If Carr was back within 48 hours, chances are a MACR form was never filled. As for the fate of the aircraft itself, not all were accounted for, far from it. For example, Blake and Sheflin article stated that;

"In addition, the 9th A.F. loss records, nor any other reference source, list Bruce Carr as being shot down during this period of the war, nor do they list any serial numbers of planes he is known to have flown." (underscore is mine)

Well, Carr did bailed out due to engine failure from a P-51B (serial #43-6930) while with the 380th FS, 363rd FG, 9th AF, and I think it is fair to assume that this a/c was lost (reported as a "5") (HERE); Carr had two assigned P-51D in rapid succession in 1945, #44-13693 and #44-63497, but I never found any reports concerning the fate of the first one. So much for paper trails.

So, are the events described in the AIRFOIL article bogus? Certainly not! But how does Carr "shopping excursion" near VE-Day is evidence that he did not steal another Fw 190 in late October - early November of the preceding year?

As for Col. Felix Kozaczka (Ret.) witnessing the last episode, I don't doubt it. But when he transferred in August 1944 from the 382nd FS, 363rd FG, he was assigned to the 356th FS. He never was Carr's wingmen, as Sheflin stated in a 2004 vehement post. As for being a "wingmate", the expression used in the more tamed Airfoil piece, I will let the readers decide.

"Red 31" was not the only Fw 190 to be brought on a 354th FG base (see HERE). Curiously enough, "red 31" and "red 5" appeared to have been coming from the same outfit... based at Pilsen in November 1944.

Now, how much does the November '44 story makes sense? On October 29 1944, Carr obtained two victories plus one probable in an P-51D marked FT PI (or Greek "pi" sign?), serial unknown. See HERE. Normally, planes of the 353rd FS were identified by the prefix buzz ID "FT" followed by one Roman letter for the individual a/c . So why "PI"? This is not a typo as at least another pilot, Edward Earl Hunt, scored a "damaged" with the same P-51D on October 21 1944 (HERE). Unfortunately, he would die on November 8 1944, but not while flying FT PI. He was flying FT U "Ready Eddy" (presumably his assigned a/c) (see HERE). As for MACR, there is one... under the name Hunt, Richard (?) E. Again, so much for paper trails.

Carr was to score his next kill in FT L, Lt. Col. Glenn T. Eagleston P-51D "Feeble Eagle" (44-63607), on March 9 1945, while waiting for "his" own P-51D.

What happened during this 132 days lull? Actually a lot; Carr was send for a 30 days R&R stateside on mid November, as reported in his story, and as confirmed by Steve Blake himself (The Pioneer Mustang Group:the 354th Fighter Group in World War II, by Steve Blake, Schiffer, page 269). As he was leaving, the entire group was abandoning reluctantly their beloved Mustangs for P-47 "Jugs". Since Carr claims that his March 9 1945 victory was on his first return mission, it is fair to assume that he never flew a P-47. at least in anger, of the entire war.

FT PI was probably a "go to" or "mule" aircraft for pilots in need of a mount while their assigned bird was unavailable. After October 29 1944, this plane left no traces whatsoever. Not to be mistaken with Cary W. Salter "Charlotte's Chariot II" FT "pi", serial #44-63747, (see HERE) that he received after the 354th had returned to P-51s in February 1945. The serial would suggest that this plane came out of the assembly line around the same time as Carr's last P-51. Someone that seems very knowledgeable on the matter gives March 1945 for its arrival at the 354th FG (HERE).

That the paperwork of the 354th would not mentioned the loss of the first FT PI is far from being unconceivable; the group was fighting a war while changing its whole airplane inventory twice in three months! A "mule" lost as it was to be transferred to a second-line unit may well have fell between the cracks. Another fact playing against a form 14 accident report is that they were reserved usually for non-combat related events.

To conclude, among the stories reporting the events as true, we must consider Col. John L. Frisbee USAF (ret.), former editor of Air Force magazine, who wrote in February 1995, this article HERE. for the "Valor" series published in this same magazine. As a military, editor, journalist and historian of the American Air Forces, his credentials are without reproach. Apart from the date, which he places in October '44, and other details, his article follows Carr's recollection to Sir Boyette.

It will take more than a half-done piece of journalism and the absence of a paper trail to convince me that the words of a dying war hero are worth nothing.

 

[Robert19]

I stumbled on this thread searching while searching for info on my friend Bruce Carr. From the late 80's to early 90's I managed a flight school in Kissimmee, Fl. Bruce was a regular there, often sitting around with us at our table outside. I'll never forget him telling me about the FW190 event and many others. He was a unique character for sure!. One day we were sitting around while I was waiting for a student to return from a cross country flight. I was upset because the student was running late and I was to go pick up my girlfriend after work. Her family owned a sod farm about an hours drive away. Bruce suggested I just fly to her place and pick her up in an airplane. I had thought about this before, but on her property there were cows, horses and other live obstructions roaming around. When I told Bruce about this, he just laughed and said "come on, lets go fly". Well, when Bruce says "lets go fly" ...you go fly! We got in a 172 and the first pasture we found, Bruce proceeded to show me how to chase cows. He then said to fly to the girlfriends property, when we got there, he says "now chase them cows, and land" so we did. On the way back, girlfriend in tow, Bruce wanted to fly over his house. This is when I learned the rumors were true that he lived at Cypress Cove, a nudist colony. He thought it was the funniest thing to buzz the nudist playing tennis and water skiing. Twenty years later I still miss that guy.

There is another event he told me about that I've tried to get more info on. If anyone else who actually knew him comes across this thread, please let me know if he told you about the fact he was the first person to shoot down a Mig. I remember him being angry about not getting credit for it. He told me that while in flying F86s in Vietnam, he tried to engage a Mig15, but the Mig pilot ran. Bruce was instructed to let him go, but instead he chased the Mig back to its base and shot it down while on final. He said he almost got court marshalled for that event because it broke some "rule of engagement" and had to agree to have the gun camera footage destroyed and not get the credit for the kill.

If anyone has more info on the Mig, please contact me.



RobertPrice19@msn.com