Question on Ferrying Military Jets

[AusWilko]

G'Day, a question if I may

If I was to take a F-15E from Nellis to Seymour or Seymour to Lakenheath what height would be the norm and I presume you would stay out of civilian routes

Thanks

 

[TeaSea]

That's a good question, and I have no idea what the answer is....however, I do work with an ex-F16 jockey, who has done exactly that.

I will ask him tomorrow and post if you don't have your question answered by then.

 

[Bone]

Unless you're going to go from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson at 200 feet, or some other tactical endevour, when it comes to just flying from A to B, there is no difference in the airspace system as regards to military and civilian traffic. Military and civilians all fly the same Jet-ways and Victor-ways, using the same cardinal altitudes and air traffic controllers, and using the same air traffic control procedures. Single ships and formations fly the same routes, although formations get block altitudes. A few months back an air traffic controller gave me a traffic call about a USAF F-16 that was about to cross my route at 1000 feet above me...I think I was at 30,000 feet. The F-16 pilot was communicating on VHF just like the rest of us, and I called him insight to the controller, and then the F-16 pilot called us in sight. Then I asked him if he would give us a roll as he passed in front of us, and he did. It was fun. I see all manor of military planes in the sky around me everywhere I go. I even get to see quite alot of aerial refuelings, when we pass close to AR Tracks. Once I was going from Savanah, GA to Dallas, TX, and a B-52 was on the same Jet-way we were, but 2000 feet directly below us and slightly left. I watched him out my left window for about an hour, until he made his descent into Barksdale AFB.

Anyway, if you're going going to fly from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson, then you're going to need to be at an odd altitude such as 31,000/33,000/35,000/37000 feet. When your course track falls between 001 and 180 degrees, you fly odd altitudes, when your course track falls between 181 and 360 degrees, you fly even altitudes. Pick a route using Jet-Ways if you have charts, or go direct since it's only flightsim. When you go over the Atlantic, you might as well just go direct, unless you've got the overwater track system all figured out.

 

[skyblazer3]

Thanks for sharing those stories Bone, it sounds like great fun -- something to break up the monotony of flying. In the tomahawk I only worry about A-10s going into and out of a bombing range low-level -- I can't imagine 30,000 feet.:salute:

 

[AusWilko]

hanks for that Bone, much appreciated

 

[RKinkor]

Unless you're going to go from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson at 200 feet, or some other tactical endevour, when it comes to just flying from A to B, there is no difference in the airspace system as regards to military and civilian traffic. Military and civilians all fly the same Jet-ways and Victor-ways, using the same cardinal altitudes and air traffic controllers, and using the same air traffic control procedures. Single ships and formations fly the same routes, although formations get block altitudes. A few months back an air traffic controller gave me a traffic call about a USAF F-16 that was about to cross my route at 1000 feet above me...I think I was at 30,000 feet. The F-16 pilot was communicating on VHF just like the rest of us, and I called him insight to the controller, and then the F-16 pilot called us in sight. Then I asked him if he would give us a roll as he passed in front of us, and he did. It was fun. I see all manor of military planes in the sky around me everywhere I go. I even get to see quite alot of aerial refuelings, when we pass close to AR Tracks. Once I was going from Savanah, GA to Dallas, TX, and a B-52 was on the same Jet-way we were, but 2000 feet directly below us and slightly left. I watched him out my left window for about an hour, until he made his descent into Barksdale AFB.

Anyway, if you're going going to fly from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson, then you're going to need to be at an odd altitude such as 31,000/33,000/35,000/37000 feet. When your course track falls between 001 and 180 degrees, you fly odd altitudes, when your course track falls between 181 and 360 degrees, you fly even altitudes. Pick a route using Jet-Ways if you have charts, or go direct since it's only flightsim. When you go over the Atlantic, you might as well just go direct, unless you've got the overwater track system all figured out.

200 feet agl nellis to seymour sounds fun to me

 

[Victory103]

To add to Bone's post, careful on the amount of fuel you add externally. The Mud Hen should be fine with the already on conformal tanks with 2 wing drops. There was a good thread on the VRS forums by a rw Hornet pilot about not adding all 5 tanks, as the added drag took away from the additional fuel. For "SJ" to "Heath", one could put an AI KC-135 over the Atlantic.

You are also looking for a "max range" airspeed, should be around .83 to .90 Mmo, and the obvious, stay out of burner.

 

[TeaSea]

Spoke to my guy and he echo's what Bone submitted....some interesting points which probably don't relate to your Simmming, but might.

For Transit the responsibility for coordination and deconfliction with Civil Aircraft is the Tanker Wing who will be in support. The Wing works with an Agency in DOD who presents the transit plan to the FAA, who works further with International Civil Aviaiton authorities to ensure deconfliction. The fighter aircraft talk directly with local ATC until rendesvous at first fuel point, at which point the Tanker picks up the responsiblities. This continues until drop off at the far end, then the fighters intitiate with regular ATC once again.

Flight Levels are standard. Frequencies are standard. Call Signs are military, but filed with the civil authorities per the intial coordination. Regular IFR is in effect.

Routes are often deconflicted to either slightly North or South of the normal transit route. The Azores route is used a lot.

So not that much different from Civil flights, but you will need a tanker!

 

[Bone]

The fighter aircraft talk directly with local ATC until rendesvous at first fuel point, at which point the Tanker picks up the responsiblities. This continues until drop off at the far end, then the fighters intitiate with regular ATC once again.

An interesting thing to note about the AR rendevouz is when the tanker accepts responsibilty. On the radio, you can here them declare "MARSA" to the ATC controller when the reciever aircraft hit the AR Track. "MARSA" stands for Military Accepts Responsibilty for Separation of Aircraft. When you're close to an AR Track, it's quite interesting listening to the radio exchange between the tanker and controller. The tanker really becomes the Mother Hen for the reciever aircraft. I'm glad the tanker guys prefer to talk on the VHF freqs, because it's interesting to listen to.

 

[Bone]

For Transit the responsibility for coordination and deconfliction with Civil Aircraft is the Tanker Wing who will be in support. The Wing works with an Agency in DOD who presents the transit plan to the FAA, who works further with International Civil Aviaiton authorities to ensure deconfliction.

One more thing to add. The coordination you're refering to here is more specific to the "Fighter Drag" transit. Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it. Sometimes even there's more than one tanker with another group of fighters, all involved as part of the same Fighter Drag. It's the size of these drags that require the coordination, not so much that it's a military thing. When C-17's, C-5's, KC-135s, ect. fly overseas in single ships, they're just like any other plane in the over water tracks.

 

[Bjoern]

200 feet agl nellis to seymour sounds fun to me

As long as you can make a few fuel stops...

Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it.

Is the tanker tagging along all the way?

I figure that the range of a KC-10 isn't enough for a TransAt if you've got a dozen fighters leeching off fuel every odd one or two hours.

 

[Bone]

Is the tanker tagging along all the way?

I figure that the range of a KC-10 isn't enough for a TransAt if you've got a dozen fighters leeching off fuel every odd one or two hours.

That's the way it's been explained to me, Bjoern, but I don't think your going to have a tanker/fighter ratio of 1:12. Also many times, support personnel and everyone's personal belongings are being transported in the tanker. Some go in advance, though. You've got a hand full of pilots who are flying the airframes to 'wherever', and the rest of the support people and pilots are bumming a ride. There's probably numerous scenarios on how the drag operation works, depending on how much and how far, and each drag will be handled according to it's needs. I have a friend who flew F-111's out of RAF Upper-Heyford, and he was telling me about his squadron's deployment to Nellis for a Red Flag. The logistics are quite complicated.


There may be times when a tanker tag team effort needs to be done, but I don't think the fighters are getting fuel every hour or two. They burn the greatest amount of fuel getting off the ground and climbing to altitude. Once they're in cruise, they don't mow through fuel like a fighter normally does.

Disclaimer: Obviously, I've never been a part of a Fighter Drag, but I know and fly with alot of fighter pilots...and they LOVE to talk about fighter pilot stuff, lol.

 

[skyblazer3]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.

 

[Bone]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.

Your dad was cracking the whip, lol. That's too funny. My dad flew B-52D's in Vietnam during the late sixties, with the 393rd squadron/509th BW from Pease AFB, New Hampshire. He did three Arc Light tours of 6 months each, comprising 165 total combat missions out of Guam and Utapao, Thailand. Out of his three tours, he actually ferried a bomber over there once, and ferried one back. They also had tankers from the refueling squadron at Pease go at the same time, so they flew en masse in a drag type operation. Before the ferry process coming home, they got abunch of 2x4 lumber and built cradles in the bomb bay, and brought huge amounts of stereo's and other cheap goods back with them. I've still got one of his big-arse clunky Sony reel-to-reels in one of my closets.

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

To add to Bone's post, careful on the amount of fuel you add externally. The Mud Hen should be fine with the already on conformal tanks with 2 wing drops. There was a good thread on the VRS forums by a rw Hornet pilot about not adding all 5 tanks, as the added drag took away from the additional fuel. For "SJ" to "Heath", one could put an AI KC-135 over the Atlantic.

You are also looking for a "max range" airspeed, should be around .83 to .90 Mmo, and the obvious, stay out of burner.

General consensus view from my F-15E buddies is that two bags of gas is the optimal fuel loadout on a cross ocean ferry flight -- one of each of the wing pylons. The centerline pylon is generally left empty as putting a fuel tank on it causes stability issues in many flight regions.

Ken

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.

Holy crap! That means your father's jet was immortalized in an excellent Keith Ferris painting!

Ken

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

One more thing to add. The coordination you're refering to here is more specific to the "Fighter Drag" transit. Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it. Sometimes even there's more than one tanker with another group of fighters, all involved as part of the same Fighter Drag. It's the size of these drags that require the coordination, not so much that it's a military thing. When C-17's, C-5's, KC-135s, ect. fly overseas in single ships, they're just like any other plane in the over water tracks.

This is very true!

One of my more memorable flights was non-stop from Hurlburt Field to Ali al Salem, AB, Kuwait in an MC-130E. I recall we had five inflight refuelings to make that trip, and brother it was a LONG day and night and day!

Ken

 

[skyblazer3]

Holy crap! That means your father's jet was immortalized in an excellent Keith Ferris painting!

Ken

It's true. We had our latest reunion in October at the USAF Museum, and Keith was able to bring the painting from the Pentagon, so we had it in the hospitality suite with us. Very impressive. First time many of the pilots had seen it. After the reunion, he offered to make digital prints on canvas (they look and feel just like the oil painting) for people in the squadron. So, I ordered one for my father's Christmas present, and then I got one for myself. I will post pictures when it gets back from the framer.

I've also made a DVD of the deployment from old 16mm air force footage (they had a camera crew on hand for all stages of the deployment), as well as some excellent photos that Keith took from the backseat of the Phantom. Narration is done by one of the jocks. I've given copies to all pilots and families in the squadron -- trying to figure out how to get it on Youtube. Most of the aircraft commanders are in their late 70s, GIBs 10 years younger -- so my job is to handle all of the computers and technology related to the reunions.

 

[Bone]

Good stuff, Chris!

(oh, woe is me, the lowly son of a bomber puke, ohhh wwoe is mee, the lowly son of a bomber puke, ohhhhh wwwoooe isss meeee......)

 

[skyblazer3]

Bone,

can you explain the B52 arc-light flights in vietnam?