question , on german fighters
- Thread starter loverboy1
- Start date
They certainly where.
Bf109 and Spit where more or less an equal match during/around BoB,
the Fw190 outclassed anything in 41/42, still holding a slide edge over the Spitfire until well into 1943 (contrary to the Spit glorification myths), they got their punishment when the US long range escorts appeared over continental Europe but caught up again and particularly suprpassed by 1944 with their latest reincarnation such as the Fw190D, Ta 152, Bf109G10/K, not to mention the Me262. Thankfully for the free world there where no longer enough trained pilots around by '44 who could make proper use of the new weapons.
Bf109 and Spit where more or less an equal match during/around BoB,
the Fw190 outclassed anything in 41/42, still holding a slide edge over the Spitfire until well into 1943 (contrary to the Spit glorification myths), they got their punishment when the US long range escorts appeared over continental Europe but caught up again and particularly suprpassed by 1944 with their latest reincarnation such as the Fw190D, Ta 152, Bf109G10/K, not to mention the Me262. Thankfully for the free world there where no longer enough trained pilots around by '44 who could make proper use of the new weapons.
DOS MAXIMUS
Charter Member
Wull
2009 WE HAVE A WONDERFUL THING CALLED GOOGLE:focus:
2009 WE HAVE A WONDERFUL THING CALLED GOOGLE:focus:
I too have tried Google, its results are no more reliable than the web pages it indexes, lol :costumes:
German fighters such as Bf109 and Fw190 were certainly very good, why else would their opponents treat them with respect? They were also built to extraordinarily high standards - a British pilot, examining a captured 109 (IIRC) placed a penny on one aileron and found the thing so finely balanced that the aileron slowly turned under this piddling weight until the penny slid off. In the last year or so standards did fall back under the pressure of war. Allied pilots continued to treat the later versions of the 109 with respect to the end of the European war.
Eric 'Winkle' Brown, test pilot extraordinaire, rated the Fw190 as a true combat pilot's aircraft with outstanding balance of controls, fabulous roll rate and tremendous vertical performance. No pilot's account I've ever read or heard ever dismissed them as also-rans.
Having joined battle, the problem Germany faced, imo, was a limited population in the face of the US, Russia, Britain and the Empire/Commonwealth with very much greater resources at their disposal. Having lost the Battle of Britain by not pressing the attack effectively and once Corporal Hitler's meddling derailed Barbarossa, the end was more predictable with hindsight. Veterans and combat-hardened pilots were much harder to come by as they were one by one shot from the sky. Ground troops faced the same problems.
It was still a hard-won Allied victory. Just one amateur historian's thoughts.
German fighters such as Bf109 and Fw190 were certainly very good, why else would their opponents treat them with respect? They were also built to extraordinarily high standards - a British pilot, examining a captured 109 (IIRC) placed a penny on one aileron and found the thing so finely balanced that the aileron slowly turned under this piddling weight until the penny slid off. In the last year or so standards did fall back under the pressure of war. Allied pilots continued to treat the later versions of the 109 with respect to the end of the European war.
Eric 'Winkle' Brown, test pilot extraordinaire, rated the Fw190 as a true combat pilot's aircraft with outstanding balance of controls, fabulous roll rate and tremendous vertical performance. No pilot's account I've ever read or heard ever dismissed them as also-rans.
Having joined battle, the problem Germany faced, imo, was a limited population in the face of the US, Russia, Britain and the Empire/Commonwealth with very much greater resources at their disposal. Having lost the Battle of Britain by not pressing the attack effectively and once Corporal Hitler's meddling derailed Barbarossa, the end was more predictable with hindsight. Veterans and combat-hardened pilots were much harder to come by as they were one by one shot from the sky. Ground troops faced the same problems.
It was still a hard-won Allied victory. Just one amateur historian's thoughts.
Pat Pattle
SOH-CM-2024
Very true, there is much (but not all
) incorrect info on the 'net due to its unregulated nature, far better to trust in books and cross reference always. Quite so, for a couple of weeks around the end August the 109's actually achieved air superiority over southern England, once again bad tactical decisions ensured that that situation didn't last.
DOS MAXIMUS
Charter Member
The top Luftwaffe aces of WW2, with over 170 aerial victories:
Top German Aces Kills Comments Medal Unit East West Plane Erich Hartmann 352 First kill Nov. 1942 KCOSDJG 52352 - Bf 109Gerhard Barkhorn 301 120 sorties w/o a kill KCOSJG 52, 6, JV 44301 - Bf 109Günther Rall 275 two long injury layoffs KCOSJG 52, 11, 300272 3 Bf 109Otto Kittel 267 583 sorties, KIA Feb '45 KCOSJG 54267 - Fw 190Walter Nowotny 258 Austrian, KIA Nov '44 KCOSDJG 54, Kdo. Nov.255 3 Fw 190Wilhelm Batz 237 - KCOSJG 52232 5 Bf 109Erich Rudorffer 222 1000+ sorties, downed 16 times, 12 Me 262 kills KCOSJG 2, 54, 7136 86 Fw 190Heinz Bär220 16 in Me 262, downed 18 times KCOSvarious96 124 variousHermann Graf 211 830+ sorties KCOSDvarious201 10 Fw 190Heinrich Ehler 209 - KCOJG, 5, 7209 - Bf 109Theodore Weissenburger 208 500+ sorties,
8 kills with Me 262 KCOJG 77, 5, 7175 33 Bf 109Hans Philipp 206 shot down by Robert S. Johnson KCOSJG 76, 54, 1177 29 Fw 190Walter Schuck 206 - KCOJG 5, 7198 8 Bf 109Anton Hafner 204 - KCOJG 51184 20 -Helmut Lipfert 203 - KCOJG 52, 53199 4 Bf 109Walter Krupinksi 197 - KCOJG 52177 20 Bf 109Anton Hackl192- KCOSJG 7713062Bf 109Joachim Brendel 189 - KCOJG 51189 - Fw 190Max Stotz189- KCOJG 5417316Fw 190Joachim Kirschner188- KCOJG 316721Bf 109Kurt Brändle180- KCOJG 53, 316020Bf 109Gunther Josten 178 - KCOJG 51178 - -Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff176- KCOSJG 5214828Bf 109Günther Schack174 - KCOJG 51174 - -Heinz Schmidt173- KCOJG 52173-Bf 109Emil "Bully" Lang17318 in one dayKCOJG 5414825Fw 190Adolph Galland 104 - KCOSDJG.26, JG.27, JV.44- 104 Bf 109, Me 262Knights Cross (KC) with Oak Leaves (O), Swords (S), and Diamonds (D). More about WW2 German medals here.
A fine book on this topic is
Bf 109 Aces of the Russian Front (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series #37) by John Weal. It covers Hartmann and his fellow Bf-109 pilots who flew on the Eastern Front; ten of whom shot down more than 200 aircraft.
Like all the Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series, includes detailed profile illustrations of the planes, as flown by individual pilots at certain times. Also lots of contemporary B&W photographs.
Sources:
- German Jet Aces of World War 2 (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces No 17), by Hugh Morgan, John Weal
- Bf 109 Aces of the Russian Front (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series #37), by John Weal.
- Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces, No 6), by John Weal
- Bf 109 Aces of North Africa and the Mediterranean (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces, No 2), by Jerry Scutts, Tony Holmes (Editor)
- Otto Kittel webpage - in both German and English, with many original photos of Kittel, some supplied by his family.
- Gerhard Barkhorn webpage
- The Aces Talk (originally titled Fighter Tactics and Strategy, 1914-1970), by Edward Sims, Ballantine Books, 1972
- Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft: 1914-1980, by Enzio Angelucci, The Military Press, 1983