Schweinfurt Regensberg 17_8_1943

mongoose

SOH-CM-2023
So, continuing to work on these. It's very easy for me to add 200+ ac to a missions and arrange that they all arrive at a certain wp on time, are joined by escorts, or attacked on time; the problem is when actually test flying the mission(s)

1. Using warp just between to wps, say, 10nm after leaving wp1 and 10nm before arriving at pt.2 Most times there is no more cohesion between all the flights, which rarely arrive together as they should. I reason that warping does not use the MB laid down speeds, but whatever speed the player is at the time of warp?

2. Manual flying most of the way. Of course if one does the whole missions we are talking hours.
I made notes based on the MB for heading and speed (in mph as dials don't seem to use knots). Actually the MB advised heading to the next wp doesn't always keep one on the TI path or the internal map indicated path. I have tried to set, speed, trim, and heading both as MB indicated (not always stays on TI/map path) and then use Ctrl Sft A or Ctrl A for auto pilot; also not always reliable. It seems better to set trim manually. and just monitor it. This involved regular checking on the internal map zoomed in to check on course, along with the TI indicated path; they don't always agree,

3. The object of the exercise is to keep the whole strike force together, so one has to go slower or faster as the player, to try and keep them all together; NOT easy!

4. Now, although I do have a planning mission involving the whole mission with 2 Air Task Forces (Schweinfurt), to which I could add all escorts and attack ac, mostly I plan to work with missions involving 1 ATF, or, more often 1 Combat wing, but, given the whole defensive policy of the 8th., I can't really reduce the 8th. missions below a Combat wing, and, sometimes, an ATF.

5. Escort fighter or LW missions are easier in that I am operating within 1 squadron or 'Gruppe' or 'Staffel'. I have yet to check if all the 8th ac stick together if I warp the fighter player.

6. Spawns. I have made some both for escort and LW fighters, but so far I am not happy with them at all WRT to making them keep roughly to historical parameters.

Conclusions: There is a lot of testing still to be done, in order to make halfway decent historical type missions, and I haven't even looked at Regensberg. Hopefully something will get done before I have to go back to TOW come late Autumn at the latest! Anyone who reckons they know more about missions, feel free to contact me, and I can send the planning missions for study. It helps if you can get hold of Martin Middlebrook's book on the 2 missions.

I should add, WRT 8th. missions, they will be ones at different stages of the raid

From take off
From the English coast
From the French coast
From the IP pre-bombing point
and maybe from post bombing before LW attacks on return trip.
 
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Yeah, this is an interesting challenge in CFS3. I would add that time compression is also an option which could complement point number 2 above. I am not sure of its effect over a long flight, but possibly better than warp mode.

I know there are autopilot settings in the air file, and I wonder if these can be refined to improve behavior on these missions. I've never looked at them, but there might be some untapped potential there.

How are you doing with keeping large formations together and getting them to actually bomb targets? In my limited forays into mission building, this has been a struggle.
 
1. I will look into time compression, Is there a recognized keystroke for that?

2. Probably beyond my programming grade. If anyone wants to look into it, I am using the FP B17F.

3. Yet to check that far into the missions, but I have had good results in past RAF BC multi bomber missions. I will check on this when I get to the IP start point missions.

I made add 2-3 other start point missions for those who want shorter time spans,
a) Start point just before LW attacks on inbound bombers. 8th. and LW player missions
b) Start point just before LW attacks on outbound homeward bombers. 8th. and LW player missions
c) US and RAF fighter interceptions, which were more on the outbound homeward vectors. US, RAF, and LW missions.
 
James, I think your multiple start locations is a great idea. Gives folks options.
 
So some comments on a test mission. All 8th bombers at the French coast fly to the Belgian German border where a 100+ LW fighters meet them, so a total of ca. 300 ac.

Issues; these may be as much to do with my PC, even with a new CPU, and or my X56 throttle;e and stick.

It's a long mission, so the choices are to warp, or time compression if in a hurry! My issues:-
1. I can't get the trim exactly correct; the ac always wants to veer to the port even with constant mini adjustments (?stick)
2. That seems also to mean that even with autopilot (I don't get auto trim to work??), the ac drifts off course.
3. Time compression works, but also speeds up these errors.
4. Warping works near the beginning of the mission, but if used later when nearing the enemy, I get CTD.

Today with a lot of on hands on work, I got through the LW attack which was pretty spectacular, but required a lot of babying the controls, and using 'M' to stay on course (TI is not so accurate).

I suppose the next step is to try my cheaper Thrustmaster set up and see if that helps any.
 
Interesting results.

1. How much time does it take for the course deviation to become noticeable? Over a long enough course, no amount of precision in trimming is going to eliminate the need for periodic course corrections from the pilot. This is why hand flying long flights can be tiring. On the one hand, that was the reality of flying in a bomber formation. On the other hand, it's hard to make that an enjoyable experience in a flight sim.You'll have to invest in some AI-powered dialog for your co-pilot to give you somebody to talk to.:biggrin-new:

2. This is surprising. I would think autopilot would be able to manage it. Or does it just tolerate more deviation than you would like before correcting back to course?

3. Yep.

4. I suspect your CTDs are memory related. CFS3 can only draw so much RAM before crashing. RAM usage tends to spike a bit as new things are loaded or come into view. With warp making these events occur near simultaneously as things get busy the spikes probably push it over the edge.
 
1. Using the Thrustmaster caused less deviation. I am thinking the X56 stick is a bit loose around the rudder axis twist. More checking required.

2. I will investigate more. Is there a difference between Ctrl Shft A and CTrl A?? I don't get the latter to work.

3. I guess WRT this and pt. 1, I have to go in and out of time compression, and, WRT of pt. 4 judicious use of warp.

4. Probably.
 
1. When I had the predecessor of the X56 from Saitek, I found it got pretty sloppy after a couple years.

2. Are these autopilot and auto trim? I no longer have the default keys. I don't believe auto trim is very effective. Not sure about autopilot, haven't used it much. As an alternative, what about setting up a gunner station in the cockpit view without control over any of the guns? Theoretically you could switch to it and the AI would take over, and maintain course and formation while you remain in the pilot seat. You could run time compression up to 16x and not have to mess with warp at all.
 
1. I will see if I can tighten it.

2. Ctrl Shft A = autopilot and CTrl A= autotrim. AFAIK Ctrl Shft A isn't a default key.
How to set up a gunner station in the cockpit view without control over any of the guns?, or ? use the navigator?
 
1. For me it was the potentiometers themselves that were of poor quality and wore out quickly.

2. Here's a quick example using the FP B-17F:

<Seat Name="Pilot - AI Control">
<Stations>
<Station Name="Pilot - AI Control" Type="gunner_station" View="0" FovUp="30" FovDown="30">
<PadlockLimit AzimuthMin="-134" AzimuthMax="134" ElevationMax="70" ElevationMin="-40"/>
<Views>
<View Event="HeadStop"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchUp" Azimuth="0" Elevation="-30"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchDown" Azimuth="10" Elevation="18" X="0.20" Y="0.0" Z="0.2"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchUpLeft" Azimuth="-45" Elevation="5"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchUpRight" Azimuth="45" Elevation="5"/>
<View Event="HeadRotLeft" Azimuth="-90" Elevation="-5"/>
<View Event="HeadRotRight" Azimuth="90" Elevation="-5"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchDownLeft" Azimuth="-134" Elevation="0" X="-0.2" Y="0" Z="0"/>
<View Event="HeadPitchDownRight" Azimuth="134" Elevation="0" X="0.2" Y="0" Z="0"/>
</Views>
</Station>
</Stations>
</Seat>
 
So that works, although for some reason it reduces the thrust and then only slowly returns to the set thrust. Is there a way for it to be the first gun station when F8 is keyed? Is it the ID number, so <GunStation ID="0"></GunStation> will be the first keyed? I note your entry has no GunStation ID?
 
Adding reference to a GunStation will give it control over a gun, which is why I left that out. I believe the order the gunner stations cycle through is the order in which the appear in the xdp. So if this entry is placed in the xdp before all the other gunner positions, it should be the first.
 
Adding reference to a GunStation will give it control over a gun, which is why I left that out. I believe the order the gunner stations cycle through is the order in which the appear in the xdp. So if this entry is placed in the xdp before all the other gunner positions, it should be the first.
OK. noted.

So, all the advice that you have given me on auto, AI, and I A S vs. T A S seems to be paying dividends. I'll do a video later of a test mission. Using the 'Z' keystoke was also critical for knowing the T A S and therefore controlling my speed, although I suppose I could do calculations in QC to work out corresponding I A S at different altitudes, as I assume CFS3 isn't clever enough to mess with air densities beyond any preset. Good to realize that mb uses TAS in making missions.
 
Still plugging away on Schweinfurt missions and the complications of coordinating so many ac. The player following the correct speed (TAS), and direction of course, seems critical. The use of warp, and or autopilot, and or time compression, needs careful investigation with such big missions; very time consuming and something which will no doubt need copious pilot notes for each mission!:dizzy: This might be off putting for the QC type player, meaning I will have to do a few edited QC type missions I suppose. Meanwhile some pics of Schweinfurt 17_8_1943 COAST1 RAF 129 Sqdn Escort IN

129 Sqdn
Schweinfurt 17_8_1943 COAST1 RAF 129 Sqdn Escort IN c.jpg

The B17s belowSchweinfurt 17_8_1943 COAST1 RAF 129 Sqdn Escort IN a.jpg

Schweinfurt 17_8_1943 COAST1 RAF 129 Sqdn Escort IN b.jpg
 
That looks very promising. It does take a long time to create the complex missions
 
Still working on how to keep big formations together for long flights and using either 'x' or time compression. I am thinking of changing all aircraft to non AI to see if that helps, given AI aircraft having known lighter characteristics. While some fighters have had AI modifications to deal with that, I don't believe bombers have, as it has rarely been important. Still testing...... :banghead:
On the other hand, if I just made a 1024 texture model and renamed it but not ~ai", would that achieve the same effect and keep the B17 gunners sharp?
 
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