~ Simply Brilliant Thinking!! ~

[boxcar]

.
Just got the following message in an email from a life-long friend back in our homestate of Indiana. Check this out...

.
"On Tuesday, the Senate health committee voted 12-11 in favor of a
two-page amendment that would require all Members and their staffs to
enroll in any new government-run health plan..

It took me less than a minute to sign up to require our congressmen
and senators to drink at the same trough!

Three cheers for Congressman John Fleming of Louisiana !

Congressman John Fleming ( Louisiana physician) has proposed an
amendment that would require congressmen and senators to take the same
healthcare plan they force on us (under proposed legislation they are
curiously exempt).

Congressman Fleming is encouraging people to go on his Website and Sign
his petition (very simple - just email).
I have just done just that at:


http://fleming.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=55
.

Please urge as many people as you can to do the same!

If Congress forces this on the American people, the Congress should
have to accept the same level of health care for themselves and their
families.

To do otherwise is the height of hypocrisy!


Please pass this on!!"
.

 

[Skittles]

Forgive my ignorance but is this congressman for or against the proposed changes. I havn't kept up with recent developments.

I was under the impression that any government initiative would be ran alongside private firms, offering the public a choice.

 

[Lionheart]

All I know is that I have no insurance for health. All the other countries on Earth have 'public health care' except the United States and probably some banana republics and some arabic countries. No.. The arabic countries probably have it.

We were the greatest country on Earth for a long time and yet we couldnt take care of our poor.

This new proposal by Obamma is for the poor people, not everyone. Its for people like me. Those who have a good doctor and good insurance are fine. To the best of my understanding, they will not be effected, which is the part I cannot understand, why all the commotion? This is for the poor people, not the ones that are 'taken care of'....

I just dont get it..

My apologies if this is touching politics. I am hoping I am not being political in asking that.


Bill

 

[boxcar]

.
Skittles: Offhand, I really don't know if he's for or against the proposed changes... but on principle I'm able to see how this latest development, if fully successful, could make Congress accept the same health care program that they would require us to have. Am loving it! That'll make them all think hard & deep, imo.
.
*Edit*- You posted while I was posting, Bill. Valid points... so why not require the whole of Congress to accept the very health care plan that they will pass? Seems to me you would benefit greatly as a result. It would apply to everyone in Congress as well as those of us whom will end up with the plan. Better quality assured, to my thinking. Hope this makes sense.
.

 

[Skittles]

Well if the choice is still available then I see no reason for congressmen and women to move to the government funded system. It was never meant for them. As far as I'm aware the US government aren't forcing anyone to join the government policy, they are just making it an option.

There should be no need for consideration of the system, it is just important that the system is in place. Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.

 

[stiz]

settle it all and have 2 options, goverment funded and private .. we do, those who cant afford it use the NHS (goverment funded) and those who can afford go private if they wish. I've seen both sides of it, both the NHS and private, the only difference is the cost and how many smiles you get, theres a lot of false niceness in private hosipitals!

 

[Lionheart]

Well if the choice is still available then I see no reason for congressmen and women to move to the government funded system. It was never meant for them. As far as I'm aware the US government aren't forcing anyone to join the government policy, they are just making it an option.

There should be no need for consideration of the system, it is just important that the system is in place. Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.

That was my thoughts too and I agree massively with the last part of that.

 

[boxcar]

...Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.

... ~Absolutely~ Well said!
.

 

[cheezyflier]

with all the things the government has run into the ground trusting them with your health is just stupid.
that they would make themselves have to abide by the same plan they shove down everyone's throat seems commendable until you realize that just because they will be elligable to use it doesn't mean they have to, like so many of the people they inflict with it. every single one of them is very wealthy and can sef-insure. when i see the bill that FORCES them to be subject to that plan with no outside subsidizing, then i may reconsider.

here in canadia, i have seen what socialized medicine does to people first hand. i can post the x-rays of what they did to my ankle. it looks like a mexican attacked me with a drywall gun. or i could tell the story of what they did to treat my wife's cancer. i can show you how a lack of competition between doctors promotes mediocrity and removes the drive to be better than the next guy. those of you who want socialized medicine either haven't done any serious research, or you're naive enough to believe the government will deal with you fairly before considering budgetary agendas. i wish i was wrong, and i hope history judges those decisions more graciously than i am able :angryfir:

 

[boxcar]

...when i see the bill that FORCES them to be subject to that plan with no outside subsidizing, then i may reconsider.

And thank you for expressing this so well. That is precisely what I had in mind when first reading the email this afternoon.

Regarding your other thoughts: am feeling your pain & frustration, man. Really.
.

 

[GT182]

Ok, here's one thing that no one seems to get..... The US Constitution, and it's Admendments, does not give the President or Congress the right to control health care..... supplimental health care included.

Now my delemma....
My supplemental health care went from $35.00 a month, each for the wife and I, to $183.00 as of 01/01/2010. Raised without our knowlege until the bank sent us a notice of being overdrawn in our checking account. Automatic withdrawl for payment. Why we asked did it take a jump like that. You won't believe the answer..... "Because of President Obama's health care plan" was the answer. We cancelled with them and are still waiting for our money back, if we ever get it.

And to top it off.... no notice from our supplemental carrier that the rate was going up. I say that's theft. The company... Sterling Options 1. Stay away from them or find someone else if you have them. In NY we had American Progressive as our supplemental and it was at no cost to us. There is no American Progressive here in Delaware, or we'd have it back again.

Whether this thread is political or not.... this health care deal is something everyone needs to be concerned about. It will affect us all, young and old alike. It's already affected the two of us.... we have no supplemental now.

And as for Cheezy's predicament..... I know many from up across the border that come to the US because Canada's social medicine is that bad.

 

[boxcar]

.
Gary- That is some painful stuff, guy. To not even be told of the increase is beyond bad, imo, & especially with how much that increase was. Out of line, man. Hope you & yours find an acceptable alternative soon.

.
And to the SOH Moderators: before things get out of hand here, as I'm seeing the distinct possibility that they could now, it would not bother me one bit if this thread were locked or even removed. Thanks.
.

 

[MyassisDragon]

If the giant "for-profit" healthcare corporations are so great and government healthcare is so horrible, then why are the private insurers scared s!*#less if having to compete with a public option.

 

[Hals und Bein Bruch]

WASH YOUR HANDS ...other than that.. HELL YEA IF every other nation relying on our military might provides for it's people out of our our largess.... I say our folks deserve every screening known to man and our children should receivce free screeingz fer everithing known to man.,.

 

[Piglet]

Private Healthcare---- "Can't afford the operation"
Gov't Healthcare----"Can't get that operation in time" Or "Operation blotched by imported horse doctor"
Either way, somone else is paying for my funeral/disposal.

 

[Skittles]

with all the things the government has run into the ground trusting them with your health is just stupid.

here in canadia, i have seen what socialized medicine does to people first hand. i can post the x-rays of what they did to my ankle. it looks like a mexican attacked me with a drywall gun. or i could tell the story of what they did to treat my wife's cancer. i can show you how a lack of competition between doctors promotes mediocrity and removes the drive to be better than the next guy. those of you who want socialized medicine either haven't done any serious research, or you're naive enough to believe the government will deal with you fairly before considering budgetary agendas. i wish i was wrong, and i hope history judges those decisions more graciously than i am able :angryfir:

Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.

I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences, but as someone who has worked across 'socialised' medicine, a lot of what you have said (especially about lack of competition between clinicians etc) is completely wrong. Every day of my current life is 'research,' and frankly your opinion seems to wholly reflect the Fox News attitude to health care.

I can tell you that here in the NHS, we watch these programs about 'government death panels' and 'uncompetitive doctors,' and sit here trembling with laughter at the crap some of these people are spouting.

From the WHO world health report 2000 - a ranking of health care systems;

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei

If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what else will!

 

[lifejogger]

Private Healthcare---- "Can't afford the operation"
Gov't Healthcare----"Can't get that operation in time" Or "Operation blotched by imported horse doctor"
Either way, somone else is paying for my funeral/disposal.

Well said.

 

[cheezyflier]

Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.

well, i can only tell you about the experiences i have had. here goes.

in oct 2003 a blood clot destroyed my small intestine, nearly killing me. i had 3 major surgeries, and 2 minor ones. i was hospitalized for several months and had to undergo physical therapy, and visiting nurse for a while after that, as well as being fed a solution that was pumped into my chest, 2 bags/day at $1000 each. my medical expenses for that incident were close to a half million dollars. my insurance, which was paid by my employer, covered the entire thing except for my co-pay which was less than 2 grand. what kind of job pays such awesome health care?
was i a stockbroker or business manager? no. a guy making ductwork for 40k/year. (non-union) for the time i was not working i had to pay my own premiums. it was $30/month

here's the "B" side.

1) i moved to canada when i got married. my wife had breast cancer. her treatment was handled the way you might handle your order at mcdonald's drive thru window. when they removed her breast she was put in a recovery room for 2 hours. then they put her in a wheelchair and pushed her out into the lobby for me to take her home. i asked the nurse "what would have happened if she had no one to take her home and look after her?" the nurse replied "we would have called her a cab".

2) while riding a bicycle, i had a crash. i broke my ankle and my fibula. when i arrived at the hospital, before taking me off the gurney, they asked for my health card. i am not a landed immigrant. i have no health card. they refused to give me so much as an asprin and were going to refuse to treat me. i had to call my wife to come with 24 post dated checks so they could be sure they got their money before they would agree to give me the slightest consideration. when they finally got around to working on me, they not only botched the first surgery, but had to re-break it and do it again. when they did, they still never repaired the fibula, but left it broken in my leg. see the x-rays below and see for yourself. toronto east general is supposed to be their flagship hospital. if i had a choice i wouldn't let those butchers treat my dog.

and as for what i said about the lack of competition? i see it all the time here. we have 2 children. children get sick and need to go to the doctors. all the clinics here get patients by who lives in the area. there is no competition for business. as a result the doctors could care less how you get treated. most of the clinics are full and have too many patients. it took them over a year to diagnose my wife's coughing, and to properly treat it. we went to 4 different doctors until one of them haphazardly stumbled onto the cause/cure.

so maybe you see this wonderful health care in france or wherever, but here in the 3rd largest city on the north american continent, where there are more immigrants than any other city in the entire world, the health care isn't worth a flying fig at a rolling donut. that's my experience. i have, since coming to canada in 2006 talked to many people from all over the world. and many of them have experiences that mirror my own. i know several people, who are somewhat wealthy, that cross the border into the states to get diagnosis/treatment on their own dime before letting the butchers here go to work on them. like i said, that's my experiences on both sides of the fence.
i could tell more but this reply is already voluminous enough.
in the states you cannot be refused treatment. i have seen homeless people walk into the emergency rooms to be treated for headaches and diahreah. here in canadia, you could be dying, they don't give a darn. if you have no health card, and can't put up the $$ in advance. your sh*t outta luck.

 

[Skittles]

well, i can only tell you about the experiences i have had. here goes.

in oct 2003 a blood clot destroyed my small intestine, nearly killing me. i had 3 major surgeries, and 2 minor ones. i was hospitalized for several months and had to undergo physical therapy, and visiting nurse for a while after that, as well as being fed a solution that was pumped into my chest, 2 bags/day at $1000 each. my medical expenses for that incident were close to a half million dollars. my insurance, which was paid by my employer, covered the entire thing except for my co-pay which was less than 2 grand. what kind of job pays such awesome health care?
was i a stockbroker or business manager? no. a guy making ductwork for 40k/year. (non-union) for the time i was not working i had to pay my own premiums. it was $30/month

here's the "B" side.

1) i moved to canada when i got married. my wife had breast cancer. her treatment was handled the way you might handle your order at mcdonald's drive thru window. when they removed her breast she was put in a recovery room for 2 hours. then they put her in a wheelchair and pushed her out into the lobby for me to take her home. i asked the nurse "what would have happened if she had no one to take her home and look after her?" the nurse replied "we would have called her a cab".

2) while riding a bicycle, i had a crash. i broke my ankle and my fibula. when i arrived at the hospital, before taking me off the gurney, they asked for my health card. i am not a landed immigrant. i have no health card. they refused to give me so much as an asprin and were going to refuse to treat me. i had to call my wife to come with 24 post dated checks so they could be sure they got their money before they would agree to give me the slightest consideration. when they finally got around to working on me, they not only botched the first surgery, but had to re-break it and do it again. when they did, they still never repaired the fibula, but left it broken in my leg. see the x-rays below and see for yourself. toronto east general is supposed to be their flagship hospital. if i had a choice i wouldn't let those butchers treat my dog.

and as for what i said about the lack of competition? i see it all the time here. we have 2 children. children get sick and need to go to the doctors. all the clinics here get patients by who lives in the area. there is no competition for business. as a result the doctors could care less how you get treated. most of the clinics are full and have too many patients. it took them over a year to diagnose my wife's coughing, and to properly treat it. we went to 4 different doctors until one of them haphazardly stumbled onto the cause/cure.

so maybe you see this wonderful health care in france or wherever, but here in the 3rd largest city on the north american continent, where there are more immigrants than any other city in the entire world, the health care isn't worth a flying fig at a rolling donut. that's my experience. i have, since coming to canada in 2006 talked to many people from all over the world. and many of them have experiences that mirror my own. i know several people, who are somewhat wealthy, that cross the border into the states to get diagnosis/treatment on their own dime before letting the butchers here go to work on them. like i said, that's my experiences on both sides of the fence.
i could tell more but this reply is already voluminous enough.
in the states you cannot be refused treatment. i have seen homeless people walk into the emergency rooms to be treated for headaches and diahreah. here in canadia, you could be dying, they don't give a darn. if you have no health card, and can't put up the $$ in advance. your sh*t outta luck.

Well then may I suggest you don't have a problem with socialised medicine at all, you just have a problem with the Canadian health care system (or even just certain people within it).

I can find just as many people as you who will swear blind that 'socialised' healthcare is infinately better in every respect than private medicine, and it means absolutely nothing.

Tell me, if I buy a 10 year old PC that cannot run FSX, does that mean PC's are completely useless and anyone who uses on is naive or ignorant?

Your first healthcare experience that you described - with significant cost/time investment etc. My friend has a chronic condition which has cause untold problems since birth. Her cost of care (18 years old) is now into the multi-millions of pounds. Did she need insurance? No. Did she need to pay medical bills? No. Did she need to pay ANYTHING? No.

There is a fundamental difference between the US healthcare system and mine.

In the US, the condition for help is that you can afford it.
In the UK, the condition for help is that you need help.

 

[luckydog]

Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.

I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences, but as someone who has worked across 'socialised' medicine, a lot of what you have said (especially about lack of competition between clinicians etc) is completely wrong. Every day of my current life is 'research,' and frankly your opinion seems to wholly reflect the Fox News attitude to health care.

I can tell you that here in the NHS, we watch these programs about 'government death panels' and 'uncompetitive doctors,' and sit here trembling with laughter at the crap some of these people are spouting.

From the WHO world health report 2000 - a ranking of health care systems;

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei

If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what else will!

Is this the best you can do Skittles ???? :isadizzy:

The methods used to obtain this "ranking" by the WHO back in 2000 were so widely criticised / debunked that the ranking is virtually worthless.......
Since then, the WHO no longer creates such rankings "because of the complexities of the task".

You conveniently left out the fact that WHO ranks the U.S. #1 of 191 countries for " responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient".

Isn't responsiveness what health care is all about ?????