• There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.

    If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.

    Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.

    The Staff of SOH

  • Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

Some things.

G

Gibbage

Charter Member
No, im NOT announcing that im leaving. No worries. I have been modeling aircraft for 15 years. My work is in IL2, CFS3, and was up till recently working with Microsoft/Aces on FS11, so lets just say I have been around a bit. I have also seen these things come and go. So first, I would like to say to the long time vets who feel they have had enough....

hang_in_there-1.jpg


The night is always darkest before the dawn.

The simple fact is the FS community is very small. In that every little thing has a ripple effect. Every now and then there is a big blow-up, but things settle down once the rabble has been rousted, and then the community has a new understanding.

The former has happened, now its time for the latter. Again, the community is small, and ever shrinking. It seems that flight sims attract less and less attention and customers. In that, less and less party's are able to cater too it. Things are quite frankly dire. In the last few years, we have seen almost every major player in the sim market close, and even Microsoft let go of the Aces staff (me being one of them!). Now, the question is, what to do as a community?

Its simple. Does everyone go and buy every addon we make? No. We know you cant afford that. Does everyone just accept bad products when they see one? No. You should never accept junk. Should nobody call a hearing a hearing? No. We need that feedback. So, what CAN the community do?

Simple, and cheep. Be nice! I dont need to say this to everyone, and im not singling any spacific person. Every human here wants to have fun, and we all have our own way of doing it. The moment we stop having fun, people get driven away. We cant afford to drive people away at this moment. Every new recrout to the flight sim community is a chance at a better product. Every new virtual pilot is a chance at MS or other company jumping back into the Sim world. Every new forum member is a chance to revive a community that is frankly on life support. Please, treat them, and everyone else, with respect. A friendly community is a fun one, and one who will attract more friendly members.

Why am I here? Well its not for the money, let me tell you that. Doing this for 15 years, and im yet to be rich. Also, I have over the years developed relations with almost every other developer and modeler, and I assure you, none of them are rich or in it for the money. We are all in it because this is what we like to do. On the invese side of things, we cant afford to do it for free. Back in 95, things were so much easy. Aircraft could be made in weeks, if not days. The community was huge and very supportive. Todays customer demands a lot more, but the simple fact is the market CANT support Aerosoft PBY quality on every product. If we did that, there would be nobody left to even make new aircraft. Its simple ecinomics. Supply and demand.

Long story short, be nice to each other, and bring new pilots into the fold gently. We (both the users, and developers) need this. You need this.
 
Now, I have said over and over and over that I love constructive criticism. It seems that a lot of the recent blow up is a mis-understanding of that very thing. More of the latter, and less of the former. So hopefully, this will help members of the community understand what constructive criticism is.

Lets first examine the two words involved. "Constructive" and "Criticism".

Criticism. "the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding."

Constructive. "constructing or tending to construct; helping to improve; promoting further development or advancement"

Putting them together literally means helping to improve faults! We as developers need this.

Recently, in a thread about the F-15, someone noted an error on the shape of the F-15 air brake, and showed an example. It was noted and fixed. This helps both parties, in that you as a customer get a better and more accurate product. It also helps developers and us artist's to make a better product that will likely sell more. Also, an issue with the canopy frame was noted, and that was also fixed. Constructive criticism has two parts. First, the critique, in finding a fault. Above it was the air brake and canopy frame. Second, the people noting the faults, also offered a solution, hence the helpful portion. Without the latter, its nothing more then criticism, and in no way constructive. Saying "It looks bad" or "other product looks better" in no way helps us, or the community.

With the recent spats, the last thing I want is for the users and community to accept everything we do. We want to make sure you get a product your willing to pay for, so please, from the bottom of my heart, if you see a problem with the screenshots we post, say something, but make it constructive. As developers, we look at the same model for months at a time, and details can be forgotten. Thats why we NEED the community, and thats why we post screenshots. Help us help you.
 
I would truly like, if the mods agree, to have a stick with a guide to critique. I think this is a bit wordy to expect every member here to read it, but some guidelines would help out the developers a LOT in dealing with situations like we just went though.
 
Excellent posts Gibbage.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thank you. :applause:
 
Your last paragraph and line were most excellent. I in fact enjoyed the whole post, but particularly those words. All of us are here because we love this hobby. Many of us spend ridiculous hours pursuing this hobby. We're all in it together, and should be supportive as such.
 
I really think a big part of 'the problem' is that people dont realize what a huge time commitment is involved in developing even the simplest of today's add-ons. These people are true artists with a passion for what they do. I just dont understand how people can so easily attack their work.

n114000187_30057349_6294.jpg


I drew this simple 3d model of a Newtownian reflector telescope several years ago for fun. It ended up taking a few weeks until I was satisfied with the level of detail. A few weeks - and obviously there was no sound, or animation, or..... flight dynamics! Most of the aircraft developed today for FSX are 50 times more complicated and take months if not years to finish.

My hat's off to all FS developers! You are appreciated :applause:
 
the developers keep us here playing flight sim if all we had were the default planes i would have given up on flight sim ages ago but you guys make the sim interesting and fun with variety and for that my hats off to you gents (and ladies if there are some):ernae:
 
piperarcherpilot said:
n114000187_30057349_6294.jpg


I drew this simple 3d model of a Newtownian reflector telescope several years ago for fun. It ended up taking a few weeks until I was satisfied with the level of detail. A few weeks - and obviously there was no sound, or animation, or..... flight dynamics! Most of the aircraft developed today for FSX are 50 times more complicated and take months if not years to finish.

My hat's off to all FS developers! You are appreciated :applause:
Click to expand...

Another problem we dev's deal with is a lack of understanding. Most people not accustom with how 3D modeling works would see the above and think it looks bad. The truth is, its a good model. A lot of people dont understand that what they are looking at is the raw model. Sometimes the screenshots we post is the same way, in that its the raw model and still has a lot of work. Like Piglets recent J-21 screenshots. As an artist, I can apprecate his skill, and I think is modeling is great! But some people need the textures and shading in order to apprecate it. Its not a fault per-se, just human nature. Some people can see a stone, and only see a stone. Others, can see a statue within the stone waiting to be chissled out.

Its also a balancing act we do. "Is the model to early to show" and "should I put in fancy lights, even though FSX cant do fancy lights". These are questions we ask ourself before posting works in progress, but everyone needs to remember that they are just that. "Works in progress".
 
Very well put and agree on making it a stickie. Just treat people the way you would like to be treated. Great words Gibbage. :medals:
 
well put gib, some people chastise others work to a point where the developer can say "i'm fed up of this" and hang up their hats, some people can give constructive criticism in saying "great work, i enjoy what you've done but i found a few small problems" by being polite and giving constructive criticism we are all attributable to the quality of developers content, whether you're a beta tester, texture artist, scenery developer, aircraft developer even just those who enjoy flight sim for what it is and can be, by us being constructive and not destructive in our comments the sim can advance much further as the developers think "our last release was superb, but how can i try and push the boundaries this time" and go and start investigating new ways to do things.... if everytime we downloaded content used it, enjoyed it and sent an e-mail to its creator, then they would feel great as they've made someone happy, sometimes though you can download something which wasn't what you expected, in these cases its nice to point out what you like about it, how you think it can be improved (Caution here, don't instruct, advise and suggest)... and yes strangely ace combat quotes sum it up nicely "From a ripple of change shall a storm arise" well that ripple of change can be us giving constructive feedback, and that storm, heck that ain't no cloud thats a whole load of new aircraft on the horizon, and beneath it the changing landscape as the 'cloud' passes over it...

anyways i'll shut up now and go back to my office in the corner of my paint hangar :icon_lol:
 
I agree that a spot of political correctness is needed. I even agree that I sometimes go OTT in my wishful thinking about quality and standards.

I have also basked in the sunshine of the many "WOWs" I have received for my paints, but I hope I haven't let that go to my head (too much) because I see a lot of talented new developers and painters out there, all producing work I can only dream of. I wish I could model in 3D so that I could really understand developers and contribute knowledgably.

We are at (yet another) a turning point in flight simulation. ACES is no more, MS might just make a console game out of this hobby - Well, they'll try. Aerosoft is investigating the possibilities of making a new sim. X-Plane is hotly debated as a successor too and folk also play the "war game sims". And we hobbyists are naturally concerned. Some of us run around in circles, others shout out in knee-jerk time to the beat of the pay-days when we can possibly afford yet another more expensive addon.

Elsewhere I propound the need for a form of quality management in our hobby. Here I must try and remember people and how different we all are. After all - it is about people and how people percieve the "makers and shakers" in this hobby.

I too, have been at the wrong end of severe forum invective about one model. I even received hate mail through the PM service of that provider. Very rude hate mail as it happens. My crime? I tried to support a model I was beta on and that I provided paints for because people were attacking the FPS as impossible (20+). I didn't get paid for my artwork - so what. I did it out of love for the product which I believe in. But the vitriol in the forums was painful and no one wanted to listen to reasoning.

A couple of releases later and there is a new addon from the same publisher and dev team that really brings my PC to its knees. In default 50 FPS in addon less than 10 FPS.

With the first product I was still getting 20+ and the hate was intense.

With this product I get sub-10 and the forum is full of love.

I will never cease to be amazed by folk. No matter where I look in the sim world, I see 10 people with 15 opinions.

Gibbage, sir, you have a dream that the end users will understand the amount of work you put into your products. Well, I would love to see that kind of appreciation and respect for you guys too (even if I am sometimes on the opposite side of that remark - when errors do slip through past my credit card).

Abacus, Just Flight, Carenado, FSAddon, Flight 1, FSD, Alphasim, Aerosoft and simMarket. (fill in any gaps you care to imagine)

The readers here can tell good and bad stories about each of the above publisher/developer teams as well as those not listed. I have even paid for good, bad and indifferent products from each of the above. But it is the bad products that leave me with a more negative feeling. My own reason for the ordering above? How much money I spend at each. At the right hand end of the list I have spent over a thousand dollars over the years. On the left, less than a hundred. My money may tell me which are the better providers but it still doesn't guarantee that the next money spent there will be for better or for worse.

"Be Nice"

Great sentiments. Good to strive for. Difficult in the Inernnonymoty of the web. But yes, we can do it if we try. I wish us all good luck

:running:
 
Gibbage, I was in the process of trying to put some words together when you posted this, and I'm glad I saw your post first, because you nailed it. Thanks for taking the time to post something that every member of the FS community should realize and understand.:medals::medals::medals::medals:
 
Here! Here! :medals:

Excellent post Kevin and I do hope that at times, I have offered "construtive criticism" in a mannerly way from my knowledge of the aviation industry and history, but have not offended anyone in doing so.

I avoid bashing and trashing posts at all costs, been through that enough in the plastic modeling forums to see how it has driven others from the hobby. I do not want to see that at SOH.

I am sure for those that grunt and moan, there is a proper place for it. Even at SOH, we have OSO's.

SOH has people from all ages, male and female, good people too from what I have read into the posts here. We have veterans, many still serving, bright young kids not yet wet behind the ears, geniuses and fools (Pointy31 and I :icon_lol:); they're all here.

So let's have a good time. That's what all my friends that really know me say about me, no matter the situation, every time they've ever been with me, they had a good time. NavyChief has my philosophy down pat with the Hash Runs, when in company, try to be cheerful and understanding. To be able to make people laugh, especially children, is one of the greatest gifts God, Allah, or any Cosmic Muffin can bestow upon a human being.

Caz
 
It is great to see that there is still people out there that think the same as I do, not saying everyone has to think the same way, I just want to keep our awesome community alive and well and I will go very far to do so :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top