'Talladega 2003:'

Hey All,

Junior had the position and Kenseth came down on him. NASCARS ruling was completely consistent.

In order to establish that you have the inside position you have to have your nose to the door (meaning I think halfway up the car) above the yellow line if your behind this you are supposed to lift. JR had the position and avoided the crash going below the yellow line and since he had the position the pass was good. I think NASCAR has been pretty consistent on this rule.

Remember 1) the inside position is established when your nose is to the door above the yellow line otherwise you lift and can't pass below the yellow and 2) you are allowed to go below the yellow to avoid a crash but if you don't have inside position established you can't pass below the yellow. This really isn't hard.

-Ed-
 
If you look at the replay carefully, you'll see Kenseth stop his movement downward with barely the left wheel on the white line when he realized Dale Jr was there .:mixedsmi:

But it is what it was...
 
According to Mike Joy, JR's pass in 2003 would have been ruled illegal had he done it the following year, because it was after that incident that NASCAR changed the rule (again) to say that even if you are forced below the yellow line, the only way to avoid a penalty is to not improve your position, period. Even easier, but different than the rules in 2003.
 
Hey All,

It would be good to get a complete clarification. Because your in a corner it is not always easy to tell who has the lead. The car looking like it's behind may have the lead. That is why I thought they used the car to the door (midline) as having established your position allows you to go below the line to avoid a wreck and move ahead.

What Paul says maybe right though - what if you didn't improve your position but went below the yellow to avoid a wreck and came onto the straight below the yellow but having not improved your position - does the car pinning you down there have to give you room or can you pass? If you can't pass then you have to wreck them. I haven't heard what Paul says as being the way it is now though.

-Ed-
 
As I understand it, if you return onto the track, above the yellow line, and you have completed the pass, you can still avoid penalty by giving the position back, thus not having "improved your position" by going under the line. Or if you return above the line in the same position as you were when you went down there, there's no issue. And evidently this rule is not "waived" on the last lap, as some, including the 01 driver, have claimed.

I like what Jeff Gordon had to say about all this. "The yellow line is as far as I go. If you come down across my nose and cause a wreck that's your problem." Or something to that effect. Not always that easy though, since in such a case, Jeff Gordon will in "involved" in the ensueing wreck to some degree or another.
 
Hey All,

Paul your saying the rule has morphed into "you can never ever improve your position by going below the yellow line" - I've never heard NASCAR say this.

-Ed-

An edit: Not saying Paul is wrong - he may well be completely right - I've just never heard it from NASCAR.
 
Hey All,

That article is clear as mud because the KEY sentence is "NASCAR officials ruled Smith wasn't forced to attempt a pass below the yellow line." This is critical to the decision. Why this sentence was said is critical and NASCAR ain't talking but I think it is because he didn't have position.

-Ed-

An edit: If you think this through a bit further - suppose Smith had been above the yellow line and Stewart came down and wrecked him to prevent him winning. How does NASCAR rule? Give the win to Smith anyway? Let whoever wins win and penalize the heck out of Stewart on Tuesday? What? In order to avoid this mess is the reason I think NASCAR has allowed passes under the yellow line when drivers came down the track at superspeedways - but not last week as Smith didn't have position.

Further edit: Note it says nothing about if your forced below the yellow line.

http://claireblang.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/drivers-meeting-blog-talladega/

I'd like to know what article this was from (the source is the forums at thatsracin.com - my NASCAR forum place)

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</td></tr> <tr><td class="msgtxt">I know you disagree Mama and I like your loyalty to your driver BUT, I agree with this article.
For the second time in as many years, the driver who crossed the finish line first failed to win a Sprint Cup race. Rookie Regan Smith, who ran nose to tail with Tony Stewart for the final laps of the race, put a brilliant crossover move on the No. 20 coming through the tri-oval on the final lap. Stewart threw a block across the nose of Smith’s No. 01 machine, forcing him below the yellow line. Smith, racing for the win, took the high road and made no contact with Stewart, instead racing cleanly below the No. 20 before crossing the finish line a nose ahead of Stewart’s Toyota. Not so fast, said big bad NASCAR, who ruled Smith’s move to be illegal, relegated him to an 18th place run, and sent Stewart to Talladega’s Victory Lane for the first time in his Cup career. It has long been understood that the rule when it comes to plate racing and the out-of-bounds yellow line is that a driver forced below the line can continue to race there, assuming they come back above the line as soon as possible. Smith’s case for being forced below the yellow line is textbook. Stewart’s block was so close to the nose of Smith’s Chevrolet that he had only two options: go below the line, or spin Stewart and collect the tattered remains of the field in a third “Big One.” Smith chose to race clean; and for the record, as soon as he had room to get back on the racing groove under Stewart’s car, he did. Yet, despite video evidence making it very clear that Smith was forced below the line, NASCAR ruled against him, and stripped the rookie of his first career Cup win in favor of fan favorite Tony Stewart. Smith, when interviewed after the race, said NASCAR told him that he could have backed off the throttle rather than gone below the yellow line. Really? The final tenth of a mile racing for the win, and NASCAR is telling its drivers to back off the gas? Regan Smith was flat robbed by NASCAR on Sunday. Despite showing the maturity of a veteran and resisting the temptation to stick his nose deservedly under Tony Stewart’s block and cause another wreck to take the trophy, Smith raced clean, saved the field behind him, and was penalized for it. NASCAR’s ruling in this matter was inconsistent with previous rulings (see Dale Earnhardt Jr.’s 2003 win at the track and Kyle Busch in a late-race move in the Spring race as examples.) For lack of a better word, this was nothing short of a travesty.
Pete
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I disagree as Smith did not have position but the sentence in blue describing the understanding is right dead on. This applies to Jr in 2003.
 
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