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Top Gun....1930's style

C

Cowboy1968

Charter Member
I always wondered why the US Navy held onto the Boeing F4B for as long as they did, retiring the last birds from combat service in 1941.

My grandfather who was a Navy pilot in the late 1930's often referred to the Boeing fighters as little gnats. He always told me, when I asked him about the F4B, that it was a little killer. It would get on you and you couldn't shake the damn thing unless you had a way to extend out of the fight.

My grandfather did his advanced training in preparation for fleet service in a F4B-4, and then when he went to the fleet he was lucky enough to get into a Grumman F3F-3. He told me stories of how the little Boeing would constantly out perform anything in a dog fight. F3F and F2A pilots would find themselves getting into trouble. Unfortunately the little agile Boeing just didn't have the speed to keep up the fight with the Buffalo, Wildcat or the F3F in straight runs, but if they turned into a knife fight, then those little gnats would just get you. Your only hope was to use your speed and leave the engagement area. Therefor you become a soft kill, meaning you were driven out of the area, and not able to do what ever job you had been assigned.

But all that said, my grandfather pointed out to me, that it gave him and his "buddies" a decided advantage once they were fighting the Japanese. They knew how to handle agile enemies. The Fleet exercises paid off....

He pointed out to me the simple fact. that he and the guys who had that training and that flew against the Japanese lived to tale the stories of those early days of World War II, and those pilots that were rushed into the fleet in 1942, very few of those initial arrivals made it into 1943. He believed he owed his life to learning how to deal with those "damn little gnats" back int eh late 1930's fleet exercises.

God I miss my Grandfather.
 
I am setting up a series of missions based on my grandfather's note books. I flew the mission putting a flight of Grumman F3F fighters in a pitched battle against a flight of Boeing F4B-4 fighters. and if the .air and .cfg files are correct, I think i have to agree with my Grandfather.

In the end I understand that the Navy actually had a mixed blessing in having to use these birds until the purse string was released and opened.
 
Nice story Cowboy...thanks for the looking glass. There's a lot of reading material on the 1941 prewar footing of the mercenary AVG and regular AAC units in Asia and the Pacific, with a view on their symbiotic connection. So you get some feel for the Air Corps transition from peacetime to war and how they painstakingly learned to cope with superior Japanese fighter aircraft. But the topic of how the Navy's fighter corp transitioned gets little focus. I may have to fire up some fleet biplanes tonight. :guinness:
 
I have been working on a conversion for my Grandfather's tribute missions.

I am getting close, but having some texture problems...but I can live with those.....

My Grandfather told me this bird marked a change in Navy thinking. They got away from the agility of the F4B, and got into the idea of speed. He said that the Curtiss F11C-2\BFC Gosshawk was the game changer along with the Grumman FF-1.
 
That's Why I Love . . .

the Spanish Civil War era, lots of aircraft of this type. I like adding Grumman biplanes in as what-if missions.
 
Cowboy,

The F3F is the Aeroplane Heaven version of the plane. It flys great in CFS 2 and I'm pretty sure that it is now freeware.

The SBC Helldiver is by the Flight Deck Design Group. I don't know if they are still afloat as I haven't seen their web site in some time.

Paul Clawson also made an SBC Helldiver and Peperez did a CFS 2 conversion for it. It should be here in the library.

Look for either Peperez as the author or for: Paul_Clawson_SBC.zip

The little Boeing Peashooter is by Mark Steckel. Look for: boeing_p26a.zip and boeing_p26a_Patch.zip

Wolfi made a very nice Peashooter which I now use. Look in the archives under Wolfi. It was made with updated software and is thus the gold standard for Peashooters.

I just love this era of military flight.

Aeroplane Heaven F3F in a what if mission for my "Flying Barrels V2" campaign
Wolfi's P-26 over the Philippines against his G3M Nell
Wolfi's P-26 in PAF colors against the Emporer's Eagles over Manila Bay
 
My own combat assessments

My Grandfather kept good notes on every plane he either flew or came into contact with. Based on his thoughts, i have done some flying in our sim, and well have formed some opinions that are similar to his.

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Boeing F4B-4

This is an interesting machine to fly. By the mid 30's it was relatively slow compared to the other bi-plane fighters that the navy was using, but despite its 190 mph max speed, it saving grace that led to lasting in fleet service longer then several of its companions, was its agility. My grandfather calls this thing a gnat. Once it is on you, it just won't let you go. To survive in a dog fight with this bird is to simply not fight it that way, because if it gets behind you, your toast. Its a good gun platform and it turns tight. Best thing to do is if you have it....use your speed and get out of its gun range. Its a real joy to fly. Its agility makes it a very survivable plane to fly, even when your opponent is using zoom and boom tactics. Its a true dog fighter. The F4B series entered service in 1928 and was withdrawn in late 1941.

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Curtiss F11C-2\BFC-2 Goshawk (export Hawk II)

Ironically this bird was actually a step back in design for Curtiss who had been building planes with all metal construction for a few years before the Goshawk was contracted. When the design entered navy service in 1932, its design had more in common with the F6C of the mid 20's then it did other birds in the works at the time of its design. Curtiss had gone back to what had produced good fighters. The F11C was fast for its day, with a max speed of 202 mph, the Goshawk marked the starting of the point of when the Navy started to change its direction in fighters. Now the preferred fighters with speed at some loss of agility. It's a nice bird to fly. It is a steady gun platform. and when it entered service it could simply out run most of its opponents. Compared to the Boeings of the day it wasn't as agile, but its steady flight corrector also made it something else the Navy wanted, a good dive bomber. It could actually be used as a true vertical dive bomber. And yes i have flown it that mission. Again its a nice bird, but compared to the Boeing, count on your speed to get out of trouble.

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Grumman FF-2 "Fifi"

This was the navy's true game changer. It introduced many things that would become standard equipment on navy fighter design. enclosed cockpit, variable pitch props, retracting landing gear and high speed of its day. Its 207 mph max speed made it faster then any other fighter in either US air services. It is a good handler, a bit heavy on the stick because of its size, but still a very capable fighter. In 1933 it pointed they way things were gonna go in fighter thinking of the period. As I said, its a good fast aeroplane, but its not the best of dog fighters, its best to zoom and boom in this bird, but it can hold its own in a knife fight with planes from its design frame and period. Not a bad first fighter from Grumman.

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Curtiss F11C-3\BF2C-1 Goshawk (export Hawk III)

To keep its design competative with the Grumman planes, Curtiss redesigned the F11C with retractable landing gear, thus increasing top speed to 216 mph. The plane in test had kept all its good handling character, but in service when the plane was carrying ordinance problems started to show up. Unlike its older sister the BFC, the BF2C had been introduced with metal frame wings as opposed to the earlier Goshawks wooden frame wings. This set a dangerous problem for the bird. It had a bad harmonics problem between the wings and the engine, they vibrated at the same frequency that literately shuck the airplane apart at cruise speed. The Navy tried fixes on its own, but couldn't work out the problem. While the navy struggled with it, Curtiss had hit on the solution to the problem. They fitted the export Hawk IIIs with the wooden wings from the Hawk II. the vibrations were gone, but this solution had come to late to help the ship in navy service. The Navy gave up on the excellent airframe design, stating due to the fact that monoplanes were now enterring navy service for both the fighter and bomber roles, It would have just been to expensive to refit a redundant platform with the new wings. So only after 14 months of fleet service the last of the Hawks were stripped of engines and anything useable and dumped in the ocean off of San Diego. Fact is if the they had fit a new engine or adopted Curtiss's solution the new version of the Goshawk would have been just as good an aircraft as its older sister. I like flying the platform.

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Grumman F3F-3 "Barrel"

In the end it was Grumman that had the last word in the navy bi-plane fighter era. In the F2F and the F3F everything came together. It was a good fast fighter with good agility and all the advances in design that would keep it almost competitive with monoplane fighters of the day. With a top speed of close to 250 mph, the Barrel could turn with the best biplanes and turn better then most monoplanes of the age. What marked the end of the biplane was that fact that it just couldn't match the 320 mph of the Buffalo or Wildcat fighters that were coming online just slightly behind the F3F. Its agility though kept it in Navy hands well into 1942 when it was withdrawn to share advanced training of fighter pilots. It shared this job with the remainder of the Buffaloes and the last of the F4B-4s that were finally scrapped in 1943. All in all the American carrier lineup of biplane fighters did set the mark for other navies to meet. Its a shame that the US dropped the ball in the monoplane area when you think of the A6M.
 
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Curtiss SBC-3 "Helldiver"

No story on USN biplane fighters can be complete without the mention of the XF12C. This was Curtiss's entry into the two seat fighter program of the USN. The plane failed to meet the Navy requirements in its origenal form, but with the USN seeking a replacement for Vought SBU and the Great Lakes BG-1 bombers, Curtiss took the XF12C back to the design shop and first offered it as the S4C scout, but they were asked to refine the aircraft into a bomber, The result was the XSBC-1 bomber. Further development of the type would lead to the SBC-3 and SBC-4 Helldiver bomber that would be the mainstay of the fleet until the arrival of the Vought SB2U and the Douglas SBD.

The key feature that SBC got from its fighter heritage was the wing. The wing was of the same tapered design that was found on Curtiss Fighters all the way back to the F6C. And it was a refinement of the wing that was found on the BF2C Goshawk of metal frame construction. By this time Curtiss had worked out the harmonics problem that was being caused by the engine of the BF2C. They used an R-1535 engine instead of the R-1820 of the Goshawk. The plane proved to be a good combination of technology and it was the last biplane accepted for service by the USN\USMC. And when Curtiss did apply the R-1820-22 to the Helldiver, they had worked out the problem of the harmonics by changing the structural members of the wing.

This plane, like most, Curtiss built planes are a joy to fly. Very friendly to the pilot. It took the diving lessons learned with Goshawk and refined them. The attack profile developed for the Helldiver would become the standard method used by the USN. (It should be mentioned, that the technique was copied by the Germans for the Stuka). The bombers would come in on a zig zaging course into the target area at around 10,000 ft. The pilots would set maximum rpm on the propeller, open the flaps and dive brakes, and then cut the engine, then they would then pass over the target and invert and enter a near vertical dive from the stern of the enemy ship. The angle was generally around 65 to 80 degrees. The stayed in the dive until they were around 2,000 ft, and release the bomb and then they would pull the nose of the bird out of the dive and slam the throttle to the firewall and extricate themselves from the target area at a fast zigging run out of the area.

As I said this bird, both the SBC-3 and -4 are a blast to fly.....
 
When my grandfather was still a nugget at Pensacola, according to his log and note books he thought about wanting to fly a Sparrowhawk from the Macon. Apparently a Lieutenant came asking pilots to request the option. The Lt. had actually flown in a Sparrowhawk for the new pilots to look at and even take up for a flight. My grandfather did just that. He took it up. And even thought of volunteering for it until an instructor talked him out of it.

My Grandfather had good things to say about the Curtiss F9C-3 Sparrowhawk. He liked how she handled. He said he could live with the slowness of the bird, knowing it wasn't meant to be fighter despite its designation. He was amazed at how well she could handle. "the slightest pressure on the stick and and the thing would out turn the devil running away from a water whose". He notes in his book that he believed the bird had the potential of being a good set of eyes.

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Curtiss F9C-3 Sparrowhawk

Myself I am to impressed with this light fighter. at when fleet fighters were finally breaking the 200 mph mark, this little thing chugged away at 176 mph. Though my Grandfather was right about one thing. It is a good stick. I guess for what it was meant for it was a good bird.

I have to admit even in our sim world it was hard job putting this thing back on a Goodyear ZRS airship. takes patience and yes skill. And it did do the job of extending the eyes of the Airship. So I guess it was a good bird.

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Goodyear - Zeppelin ZRS series airship

The USS Akron and the USS Macon were the other part of this unique team. These ships were part of Scouting Force, US Fleet. They were able to move faster then the cruisers of Scouting Force. And when they worked right they proved to be excellent extension of the fleets eyes. Though both ships had very short careers because of fatal accidents that destroyed them both. But they were able to find President Roosevelt on the USS Houston heading home from Hawaii. The idea was a good one, but well it was problematic. After the losses of the Akron and Macon, the Sparrowhawks ended their careers as squadron hacks spread throughout naval aviation. They just simply slowly scrapped out of the navy.

A good idea on paper, but in reality it was probably a mistake for the Goodyear Zeppelins and the Curtiss Sparrowhawks.
 
Here are two aircraft that were used during 1940 and 1941. It would be nice if someone could build some framerate friendly models of thies aircraft for CFS2. I am finding that the Navy Training Program durring this time used a mixed bag of aircraft. Preflight used the J3 Cub to see if you had what it would take to fly a plane. If you completed preflight you went home and waited untill a slot opened up and then you were put into the Navy Training Program.Durring Preflight and Basic Training you went to E bases. The E ment eleminate. You had to be good to continue on, but it also ment standerds changed with the need for pilots. From Preflight you went to the 1st phase of Basic Training which was in the N3N and later in the Stearman which consisted landings takeoffs stalls and spin recovery. Once you completed this part you went to the second phase which was in the Kingfisher on wheels.This consisted of formation flying and navigation.Once this was completed and if you made it this far you decided what type of aircraft you wanted to fly.This phase was called advanced training . Here you eather went back to the N3N on floats for training as scout seaplane pilot, patroll seaplane pilot flying The PBYor if you were going to fly carrier type aircraft you went into the SNJ. Durring advanced training if you were training to fly patroll aircraft you did a lot of navigation and night flying.Those flying carrier type aircraft did more formation flying More Navigation, as well as advanced aerobatics and were introduced to gunnery. If you passed this phase you wone your wings and graduated as an ensign.You then went to Norfolk VA Fleet Carrier Training Command if you picked carrier type aircraft.There you decided or the Navy decided what type of carrier aircraft you would fly depending on the need.If you decided to fly dive bombers you were trained in this form of aircraft that was being phased out of active fleet service.If you went to torpedo bombers samething. If you decided to fly fighters you flew eather the F3F or F4B and a few F2As.The F2As were being replaced by F4F-3 and turned over to the Marines. Durring this phase of training the pilots trained in gunnery, formation flying, navigation, more advanced aerobatics and carrier training.Durring this period of time you didn`t have the Great lakes carriers so the carrier quals were done by fleet carriers that were inport.They would steam out and you did your carrier quals on them.If none were inport durring your time in the training sq. you still could get qualified by doing 5 carrier wire catches at an assigned OLF.Once you completed this phase you decided if you wanted to be in the navy or marines depending on the need at the time.Once with the fleet if you were with the navy you did have to do quals in the aircraft type you would fly for the fleet.At this time accept for preflight you received around 70 hours durring each phase give or take a few.The Training was also going through a large change and durring this period of time and it wasn`t untill the middle of 1942 that a standered in training was set by the Navy and this was subject to change at anytime . You also had to have 2 years of collage and not be married or get married for the 1st 2 years of youe active service.
 
bobhegf said:
Here are two aircraft that were used during 1940 and 1941. It would be nice if someone could build some framerate friendly models of thies aircraft for CFS2. I am finding that the Navy Training Program durring this time used a mixed bag of aircraft. Preflight used the J3 Cub to see if you had what it would take to fly a plane. If you completed preflight you went home and waited untill a slot opened up and then you were put into the Navy Training Program.Durring Preflight and Basic Training you went to E bases. The E ment eleminate. You had to be good to continue on, but it also ment standerds changed with the need for pilots. From Preflight you went to the 1st phase of Basic Training which was in the N3N and later in the Stearman which consisted landings takeoffs stalls and spin recovery. Once you completed this part you went to the second phase which was in the Kingfisher on wheels.This consisted of formation flying and navigation.Once this was completed and if you made it this far you decided what type of aircraft you wanted to fly.This phase was called advanced training . Here you eather went back to the N3N on floats for training as scout seaplane pilot, patroll seaplane pilot flying The PBYor if you were going to fly carrier type aircraft you went into the SNJ. Durring advanced training if you were training to fly patroll aircraft you did a lot of navigation and night flying.Those flying carrier type aircraft did more formation flying More Navigation, as well as advanced aerobatics and were introduced to gunnery. If you passed this phase you wone your wings and graduated as an ensign.You then went to Norfolk VA Fleet Carrier Training Command if you picked carrier type aircraft.There you decided or the Navy decided what type of carrier aircraft you would fly depending on the need.If you decided to fly dive bombers you were trained in this form of aircraft that was being phased out of active fleet service.If you went to torpedo bombers samething. If you decided to fly fighters you flew eather the F3F or F4B and a few F2As.The F2As were being replaced by F4F-3 and turned over to the Marines. Durring this phase of training the pilots trained in gunnery, formation flying, navigation, more advanced aerobatics and carrier training.Durring this period of time you didn`t have the Great lakes carriers so the carrier quals were done by fleet carriers that were inport.They would steam out and you did your carrier quals on them.If none were inport durring your time in the training sq. you still could get qualified by doing 5 carrier wire catches at an assigned OLF.Once you completed this phase you decided if you wanted to be in the navy or marines depending on the need at the time.Once with the fleet if you were with the navy you did have to do quals in the aircraft type you would fly for the fleet.At this time accept for preflight you received around 70 hours durring each phase give or take a few.The Training was also going through a large change and durring this period of time and it wasn`t untill the middle of 1942 that a standered in training was set by the Navy and this was subject to change at anytime . You also had to have 2 years of collage and not be married or get married for the 1st 2 years of youe active service.
Click to expand...

What you described was a fair assessment of the training program. but once you were in the fleet prier to 1942, pilots had to move around in the fleet. Meaning that they had been trained to fly certain types, but the navy also believed the pilots should have more then just a working knowledge of the other planes in the fleet.

My grandfather's log book simply stat's "November 15, 1938, have orders to proceed to Naval Station San Diego to begin one month of TDY with Scouting Force, Pacific fleet. they want me to fly an SOC for a month. My dear, they are taking from the Lexington....."

My Grandfather told me that the Navy and to some extent the Marines liked to move the pilots from type to type, so they knew how to do other mission profiles if they were needed. And yes My Granddad did fly the F2A Buffalo, he said that bird always got a bad reputation by pilots who wouldn't know how to pee in a bucket.

I will eventually in this thread get to his discussion of the Buffalo in his note and log books.
 
Cowboy, you are on the money they didn`t stay with just one aircraft type. Glad you bought it up.

Up untill about a week ago I thought that the F2A was an outdated aircraft by this time in 1941 but it wasn`t. The reason the navy started pulling it out of active service was not because of its so called pore preformance but because they needed the space for newer aircraft comming online at the time.For its time it was an outstanding aircraft but you had to have the touch inorder to get the best preformance out of it.Your grandfather was right, if you had a feel for the aircraft it was a good flying machine.
 
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Martin T4M "Torpedo Truck"

Well my Grandpa did have bad things to say in his logs. He despised this airplane. He considered this plane a relic by the time he did his first flight in one. This was also his first time in dealing with torpedo tactics since he entered the fleet in 1935.

At the time my Grandpa flew a Torpedo Truck from the Lexington in 1937, the bird was already past its prime, but because the Navy hadn't found a proper replacement that could be justified for purchase the old Trucks had to soldier on into 1938.

My grandfather's notebook says, "I believe I could fly a kite and getter better results thin that bitch can." "I had my first flight in the bitch, today, I can walk faster then that thing at full"

At the time my Grandpa flew the Truck, the torpedo tactics were improving from broadside attack to what would become the "Anvil and Hammer" tactics used in World War II. His first experience in making a torpedo attack occurred off Hawaii in a fleet exercise. Once word had came that Scouting Force had found and made contact with the opposing forces main fleet, The USS Lexington lounched its air group to attack it.

The T4M's took off first because it would take them the longest to reach the target area. For nearly a third of the flight, they had no fighter escort. Once they made contact with the enemy battle line, (USS Oklahoma, USS Nevada and I couldn't make out the third one, smudged ink). His section leader choose to make a broadside run on the Oklahoma. They dropped down to 125 ft, opened the throttles to 100 mph and presented themselves on the broadside for a very low slow run in on target. Three of his, including his plane, were ruled killed in the attack and had to head to Pearl to set the rest out. His section only scored one hit on the Oklahoma. The other section that was in the attack choose to hit a cruiser and made the attack using the newly developed, by the Japanese, anvil attack...that section all survived the wargame and the Brooklyn was ruled dead.

My grandfather blamed his being knocked out of the game as more to bad decisions, but he also said if he had a better torpedo plane he could have got in. Oklahoma was eventally put out of action by the dive bombers in the strike.

So in the end, The old Torpedo Truck just simply had soldiered on past its time.

Grandpa said the best part of that three months in Torpedo planes with VT-2 was the fact that he got a lot of extra unscheduled leave in Honolulu and San Diego.
 
Nice post, Cowboy! Must have been great to know your grandpa and get to talk to him about his experiences. Thanks for sharing! :salute:
 
The last two biplanes to brought in on this discousion also didn't fair well in Grandads opinion. Though he admits his observations were just that observations. He didn't collect any flying time in these birds, but as a fighter pilot who had to escort many times, he made some good and valid observations from that stand point.

First let's cover this one.....

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Vought SBU-1 "Corsair"

Designed under the same design request as the Curtiss SBC, the Vought SBU-1 Corsair entered the fleet in 1935. This machine was an all metal aircraft and would be the Navy's first true dive bomber and would eventually take over that job from the Curtiss BFC Goshawk. This was also the Navy's first bomber to break the 200 mph mark. (The Goshawk configured for bombing was only capable of around 180 mph.) My grandfather commments on this machine are limited to observations.

He liked escorting this machine, but he didn't like its attack profile. He personally seen two of them go into the ocean during training. The pilots tried to treat it like it was a Goshawk and entered to step of dives that they couldn't pull out of.

Now from what I can tell of the plane by flying the one in the sim. is that he was right on. Nice bird, but keep your dives to 75 degrees so you can pull out. They should have put dive brakes on this sucker.

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Great Lakes BG

Well here is another plane my grandfather despised even though he never flew one. He called it in his notes as nothing more then fighter bait. He knew when he was in his F3F or F2A escorting these things, that they would draw enemy fighters. Simply because at the time they were slow and because they were feared the most by a ship in wargames.

They were feared because they could carry a 1,000 lb bomb that could devistate a ship. But, under this load they were slow in every aspect. and they generally operated at 8,000 ft. Even though they were classed as dive bombers, my Grandfather's notes say they seldom exceeded 55 degrees in their attack...this is what we would call glide bombing.

In the end these birds along with the SBC introduced the world to true dive bombing.

It also led the Navy to realize that they were getting to many types with simular roles and this forced a rethink in requirements.

In 1936, the carrier scouting requirement was being met by

Grumman SF-1
Vought SBU
Curtiss SBC
Vought O2U

While the bombing requirements were being met by
Great Lakes BG-1
Martin T4M
Curtiss BFC Goshawk
Curtiss SBC
Vought SBU

This large diverging force along with new technology led the USN to seak monoplanes that could meet requirements of the above and surpass them.

I think I have covered all the biplanes that are mentioned in my Grandpa's books
 
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