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What do you retired NonComs think?

TeaSea

TeaSea

SOH-CM-2014
I work at a military organization and am retired U.S. Army.

Recently I heard a male Army E7 dress down a female Navy PS1 in front of several other members of the command. In this case the PS1 was insubordinate (mouthing off). Deciding to mentor the young NCO with my quarter century military experience (I like to swing that around but I've noticed it doesn't seem to impress anyone) I later took the E7 aside and said "hey, you were in the right, but I'd have taken that off line and spoken to the sailor in private rather than correcting her in public."

His response was that "sir, she's a female and I will not correct her in private. I want witnesses."

After some thought I've come to the conclusion that he was right. Unfortunately, he cannot assume that any correction he makes will not lead to some sort of charge against him later.

What do you guys/gals think?
 
Fortunately I did not have to deal with that during my time of service. We did not work that closely with our female counterparts. But if were in his shoes I would rather face possible charges with witnesses rather than without!
Ted
 
I was 10 years active duty Navy. Now I work for them as a civilian. My workplace is a mix of sailors and civilians, so from time to time I have seen this sort of thing. When I was active duty I was an LPO in a mixed-gender division, so I can fully understand his stance.
 
I have always believed in the concept of "praise in public, punish in private". Regardless of what gender issues may come into play, the E-7 dressing down the female petty officer in front of other troops was inappropriate. He should have counseled her in private, and if he felt the need for a witness to the counseling then have her supervisor or another senior petty officer present.
 
TARPSBird said:
I have always believed in the concept of "praise in public, punish in private". Regardless of what gender issues may come into play, the E-7 dressing down the female petty officer in front of other troops was inappropriate. He should have counseled her in private, and if he felt the need for a witness to the counseling then have her supervisor or another senior petty officer present.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Leadership and "Lawyering Up" are two different things. Choose one.
 
TeaSea said:
His response was that "sir, she's a female and I will not correct her in private. I want witnesses."


What do you guys/gals think?
Click to expand...

Well,
As an AD Non-Com...I know of at least one instructor that won't do any counseling with women unless they have at least 1 witness present...
 
I realize as a retired "O" that I wasn't really invited to comment, but I had a previous commander who had the same policy. The difference is that he at least did it in his office but had at least one or two witnesses. It is an unfortunate reality in today's military, but you have to take those precautions.

I do agree that doing it in public wasn't desirable. He could have had the witnesses he wanted, but in a more private location.

Cheers,

Ken
 
It's a pretty tough call. There is nothing that makes a Non-Com look worse than "correcting" a troop in public. However, the obvious out here is to contact his Navy counter part and take the young lady aside for a heart to heart.

Beard
 
TeaSea said:
I work at a military organization and am retired U.S. Army.

Recently I heard a male Army E7 dress down a female Navy PS1 in front of several other members of the command. In this case the PS1 was insubordinate (mouthing off). Deciding to mentor the young NCO with my quarter century military experience (I like to swing that around but I've noticed it doesn't seem to impress anyone) I later took the E7 aside and said "hey, you were in the right, but I'd have taken that off line and spoken to the sailor in private rather than correcting her in public."

His response was that "sir, she's a female and I will not correct her in private. I want witnesses."

After some thought I've come to the conclusion that he was right. Unfortunately, he cannot assume that any correction he makes will not lead to some sort of charge against him later.

What do you guys/gals think?
Click to expand...

Without having seen the situation, would disagree with the public beratement, regardless of gender. I have just at twenty years of being a infantryman and would have pulled her away from the subordinates, but probably within sight of them and talked to her one on one. I don't think our military has degraded to the point of needing witnesses, but more acute situational awareness and professionalism. That male E7 has now undermined that Navy females credibility to her subordinates, regardless of the situation. A better professional would have just asked her to speak alone, at least out of ear shot and made the corrections needed to continue the mission. Just my opinion, many will disagree.

Matt
 
PRB said:
Ditto. Leadership and "Lawyering Up" are two different things. Choose one.
Click to expand...

My take on it as well. If nothing else, he could have given the info to her Chief and let him handle it.

Back when I was doing the LCPO thing, I had to "counsel" some of my guys based on out in town reports. Just part of the job.
 
Different jobs have different situations, as do units, and there are different liabilities everywhere. With women in my unit, I never felt that I needed to change anything around them. If I have to say something different just because a woman is around at work, then I was wrong from the get-go. To truly integrate and respect women in the military, (which isn't opinion, it's your duty) then things need to be female friendly at all times, not just when they're looking. That's a matter of integrity. That's just my unit though. Just because I wasn't worried about having charges of inpropriety brought against me doesn't mean others in the military don't have a lot to be worried about.

The military is a different beast these days, and I understand where he was coming from. I've known a few Army NCOs that chose recruiter duty over DI duty much to their chagrin because of potential and well known problems. Everyone deals with stress differently, DIs are the ultimate authority, and that has potential to drive some young women wild. (please notice I said some) One ex-DI told me that on many occasions, he would be alone in his office minding his own business working, and he would look up to see a naked female private, preparing to make an advance. There's no sure way out of that, and the power that women hold can be disastrous. To think that a 15 year NCO can reject a young female's (who's been in the military for 4 weeks and may have no honor) sexual advances in the name of everything a military leader should be and then have his life ended because she wanted to save her own butt is insane. Most service's modern basic training now REQUIRE instructors to never be alone with a trainee of the opposite sex.

I've seen it before, several times. I knew a guy who's wife left him while we were deployed to Diego Garcia. Six months later, he starting casually seeing a Navy enlisted girl stationed there. Unknown to him, she had been in trouble many times before for innapropriate relationships and alcohol related offenses. She came to his tent one night after she had been drinking. She left and was caught by one of her superiors under the influence of alcohol. She made a report of rape to eliminate her liabilities, and it ruined his life. He was eventually cleared, but the damage was done. The authorities didn't care for the longest time that there were others with them the entire time. For those of you that don't know, the USAF offers amnesty in exchange for reports of sexual assault or harassment.

I could tell these stories all day long, and they aren't from the AF enlisted rumor mill, either. Most of these are cases I know of first hand.

I understand this gentleman entirely. Just as you wouldn't assume all men are honest, you can't assume all women are. The other important issue of note is that you can't carry a grudge against all military women because a few are troublemakers.
 
BTW, my apologies to the Active Duty....your input is equally welcome.

Interesting that there's no straight consensus....
 
There have never been any women that made it into my unit. Ever!!
TBH I doubt there ever will unless one of Panther's 'Ladies' turns up, but there are screening tests for steroid abuse so that would (probably) be a dead issue.
:ernae:
 
It's very interesting to ask the same military leadership question to such a diverse audience from different services, rank tiers and generations. What's most interesting is the words of some of you NCOs and Officers that never had much involvement with female service members.



Another thing I though of; I do commend him for having the courage to say anything in the first place. While it is everyone in the military's responsibility to counsel and correct subordinates in the proper military image, I've known quite a few Officers and NCOs who would simply steer clear of women without correcting them when they're wrong or praising them when they're right. Such attitudes, no matter the justification, can rob everyone in the military of a female member's potential.

Forgive me for being off-topic here:

As long as we're on the subject of women in the military, I figured it worthwhile to mention that my favorite commander I've ever met or worked for was a woman. She truly had the perfect natural adjustment to military leadership. She performed her duties as a combative bomb squadron commander against the classic mold. She was like the cool big sister you never had, but she still demanded excellence and unfailing military bearing from her men and women. Remember Jen Fullmer. I believe she's a Lt Col still, but I guarantee she'll be at least a 3 star general if not higher.
 
My personal experience with women in the military is fairly positive, although I never actually served in a unit with women (being mainly in combat arms, where they could not serve) until I was first a Company Commander.

I don't recall making any special provisions for counseling or correction for women, and I was just as hard on them as the men (I was harder on myself).

I am one of those who prefers to do negative counseling in private...which is fairly pragmatic since doing it in public invites further negative discourse (which occurs in public), usually making a fairly minor course correction much more complicated.

That's why I was given to reconsider this particular incident.

As an aside, I would add that I've had far more discipline issues with men under my authority than women. Women are usually (I know this is a horrible generalization) much more willing to admit they are wrong on a particular issue than men.

On the other hand, when I've had an issue with a male trooper, I can usually engage in all the visceral arts to correct their particular position.....something I would not normally do with a female.
 
tigisfat said:
It's very interesting to ask the same military leadership question to such a diverse audience from different services, rank tiers and generations. What's most interesting is the words of some of you NCOs and Officers that never had much involvement with female service members.
Click to expand...

Tigisfat,

If this issue had come up ten years ago, I would have sided with the NCO that wanted witnesses present, but have to say the majority of women I have worked with in the last 8 years have transformed within the Army, can't talk about other military services, by acknowledging they are part of a bigger team and expect treatment the same as their peers. As a branch, there are no women in the infantry branch, but as a Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant that has had to work with female interpretors, military analysts, aviators, medical personnel and civil affairs, I have found most women expect to be corrected like their peers are and not treated with kid gloves because they are females. As always, there are exceptions to that rule and there have been some women I would only correct with a witness, but those were usually UCMJ cases. So, you are correct in stating some that replied have little experience with working with them regularly, but the times I have worked with them, most have performed admirably and taken corrections professionally.

Matt
 
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