Who Needs A Gunsight?

Pips

Pips

Charter Member
The yawning gulf between a 'real' ace and the rest of us playing at it is, I'm coming to believe, greater than the Grand Canyon.

I've just been chatting (as in PM's) to Barrett Tillman (author and historian) and he mentioned a real gem regarding Joe Foss - different era I know but probably quite applicable to WWI aces as well. I'd heard a story (which sounded outrageous to me) that Joe Foss did away with his gunsight in his F4F over Guadalcanal to obtain a better forward view. Barrett knew Joe well so I asked him if there was any truth to it. His reply was:

"But yes, Joe did tell me that he removed the sight from "his" WIldcat in order to get a better forward view. He said that between his feel for deflection shooting (all those South Dakota pheasant, I guess) and tracers, frequently he didn't need the sight at the fairly close engagement ranges. However, it was a short-lived situation because with the perennial shortage of F4Fs, other pilots couldn't fly his plane."

I don't know about the rest of you, but that just blows me away. :isadizzy: To think that Foss was that good that he could determine angle, bullet drop etc at the speeds he was travelling without any aid is simply amazing.

I wonder if any of the 'experts' of WWI had the same feel? Perhaps Fonck and MvR - both reputed to be superb shots. McCudden no, he was renowned as a gadget man. Maybe Mannock.

Men with that skill send shivers down my spine. :)
 
Hey Pips, you should try flying with the Nieuport 11 and 16. They dont have gunsights either. See what you can do.
:ernae: -Rooster
 
Rooster: Before your mouth says things, that you can't cover, I'd suggest taking a flight in the Bristol Scout, it has humbled quite a few ( pilots ) !:ernae:
 
I only use the gun sight in in single mount Vickers. All the others, I memorize the relative point where the bullets go and then use the tracers to adjust. Using TrackIr with the position I sit, in N11 and N16 where the bracing wires cross is where I initially aim.
 
Hey Gimp, Ive taken quite a few trips over the lines in a Bristol Scout. Yes I know that Its even harder to aim the gun than the Nieuports, but I did fairly well with it. 11 conf. victories I think. Unfortunately my pilot Beery Bonham went down in flames when attacking a formation of 6 Fokker E.III's.

-I hope you dont think that I was mouthing off to Pips, It wasnt intended as a personal challenge to him to try to do something I had done, merely a suggestion for enjoyment of the game.

But I posted these before I looked at his join date. So he already knows all about the sights. So yep, Im the idiot here. Sorry for not paying attention and ruining a perfectly good thread.
-Rooster
 
Even in sims where the planes have sights for the guns, I rarely use them. Just an avid fowl hunter, and you get used to split second lineup and shoot. So once I get used to a plane, and where the bullets go inconjunction with a point of reference, i can easily line up on a target, and fire, even with high deflection. But mostly I get as close as possible, even though P2 won't register the the hits as close as I like to get. I suppose that's why I like lying the Albatros, and Fokker and Pfalz fighters. There isn't a little crosshair distracting my aiming.
 
I still experience the bug, however, it seems to be a lot closer than 50 yards. I've got to be right on top of him. You can see where the tracers are going but no hits are registered.

CJ
 
It's very simple really....just go quail hunting a few times and you will get the whole picture. Imagine walking through low brush, and then having it erupt in an instant around you, sometimes on all sides, with the loud rushing wings of fast moving little buzz bombs, all about the size of a softball, exploding out of the brush and zooming in every direction. In the midst of this furor, now keep the presence of mind to FOCUS quickly on one target out of the many, isolate-lead, and shoot. If you've practiced.....and you should have by now or you will be utterly frustrated, you probably have nailed your first target, so onto the next, pick him out-lead-and shoot. Now remember you are doing all of this in likely less than FIVE seconds, AND, if you are hunting with companions and or dogs you must also be keenly aware of all of their locations simultaneously and limit your field of fire/lead to avoid shooting in your excitement into them. The best I've ever done was two birds from one "Covey jump", my father who is 84 now and an amazing wing shot, could kill as many as shells he had in his gun. Since the limit here is three, he'd often get three, but usually preferred hunting with his double-barrel side by side instead of a semi like me and my brother. He'd still outshoot us!! : ) The main point though is after you learn to aim, I mean you have to think about it at first for a while, but after you've done it long enough, it becomes instinctual, and you really don't look at sights in the way you would think, they really become a periphereal reference point more than a sight. In a way, that little bead on the end of the shotgun barrel is easily transferrable to the nose of the plane, or something visual on it. If you know where your bullets are going in reference to it, you've got all you need. Anyway, its all about practice and experience..and some skill, whether its birds, or planes. Makes you feel kinda sorry for the poor guys who got flamed before they had a chance to learn all of this.

ZZ.
 
Gunsights? We don't need no stinking gunsights!

My nik might be Cameljockey, but I LOVE my DrIs! I have found that if you fly a particular crate long enough you tend to get a "feel" as to where your rounds are going to go. Each machine has a different reference point. Once you find that "sweet spot", the rounds will start going where they need to. I spend a good bit of time practicing in Quick Flight just to improve my marksmanship. Here are the results of my last session against five SE5s (one on one).

CJ
 
er.. me for a start.. and my camel has one... but ..

1) Camel jockey.. .. impressive.. 5 with one blow... What 'grade' were the SE5s and when you say one-on-one.. does that mean you fought 5 at once? or you had 4 wing men and the enemy had 4 wing men?:kilroy: and your wingmen just flew round and round watching...

2) Do you 'aces' use the rudders to aim the plane.. or even strafe.. or do you just get so close it doesnt matter..

3) how come the AI on approach (quick fight) can put holes in my plane from several hundred yards.. and I notice that the Hannover gunner is giving me bad news long before I get into range... I want a sight like they've got...

and on that topic
4) How well do the AI know where you are? Too many stall turns (what ever) are occuring just as I'm critical on the stall.. or just about to bring it to bear.
They seem know too much.. :wiggle:
 
Cameljockey said:
I still experience the bug, however, it seems to be a lot closer than 50 yards. I've got to be right on top of him. You can see where the tracers are going but no hits are registered.

CJ
Click to expand...

That's when I like firing. When I'm right on top of them. The riggers complain alot though, as they are tired of cleaning the "messes" from the plane, and the bits that caught in the wires and struts.

They also complain that at my rate of damaging props with enemy debris, there won't be a tree in the entire continent left when I'm done.:d
 
Hylander_1314 said:
But mostly I get as close as possible, even though P2 won't register the the hits as close as I like to get. I suppose that's why I like lying the Albatros, and Fokker and Pfalz fighters. There isn't a little crosshair distracting my aiming.
Click to expand...

You need to make sure your CFS EXE is v3.1.x
v3.0 exe has the 50 yard bug.

Right click on shell.exe, properties, version.
 
wehyam said:
er.. me for a start.. and my camel has one... but ..

1) Camel jockey.. .. impressive.. 5 with one blow... What 'grade' were the SE5s and when you say one-on-one.. does that mean you fought 5 at once? or you had 4 wing men and the enemy had 4 wing men?:kilroy: and your wingmen just flew round and round watching...

2) Do you 'aces' use the rudders to aim the plane.. or even strafe.. or do you just get so close it doesnt matter..

3) how come the AI on approach (quick fight) can put holes in my plane from several hundred yards.. and I notice that the Hannover gunner is giving me bad news long before I get into range... I want a sight like they've got...

and on that topic
4) How well do the AI know where you are? Too many stall turns (what ever) are occuring just as I'm critical on the stall.. or just about to bring it to bear.
They seem know too much.. :wiggle:
Click to expand...

I couldn't tell you what "grade" the pilots were as I keep my AI on "Random".
I feel that it is the most realistic setting as the skies in WWI were full of pilots of different abilities. Like Forrest Gump says, "Life is like a box of chocolates", you don't know if your adversary is a rookie or an ace until you are committed.

No it wasn't 5 on one. I have the QC Respawn in "Workshops" turned on so when I dispatch one enemy, another shows up. After shooting down five I had still only used 880 rounds with a 42% hit/miss ratio. Marksmanship practice really helps when you're in a furball and only have split seconds to line up and take a shot.

Good rudder control is essential in combat, especially in the DrI. Werner Voss' final dogfight is testament to that. I have been practicing the "flat 90degree turn he was reported to have used in the aforementioned dogfight. In the DrI it works really well, but not so much in other craft.

The sniping by the AI from long range is a CFS3 thing, not fixed in Phase 2. Phase 3 will be different so I've been told.

I really don't know how the AI think. I would think they would act human to certain extent, and would try to evade your attacks like a human.

CJ
 
Very helpful reply there Camel jockey ..:ernae:
Thats going to help my practice sessions.. I have this thing about returning and landing it after each 'quick fight' (this can be costly ).. I didnt know about spawning..
I dont like the feel of the DrI.. too floaty and gentle but does it roll. I'm more a crude heavy footed camel man myself .. if in trouble jump sideways..
though I think the I like the DVII variants best..

Re the AI.. This seems a really interesting programming problem.. Who knows the answer? I used to do 'artificial intelligence' for a living.. The AI must have some real aeronautical physics constraints and some understanding of the flying game stucture ie any strategic/tactical knowledge... maybe I should ask in a new thread.. I really would like to understand what is happening.. :173go1:
 
It has been noted by the devs that the AI was designed to fly WWII aircraft, yet they find themselves flying WWI aircraft. That's a big difference. The AI can also do almost vertical dives from on high, whereas, if you were to try that, you would experience a sudden and certain dirt nap. Phase 2 is not perfect, it's a work in progress. These issues and a lot more will be addressed in Phase 3, (which I can't wait to get my hands on), so we have been told.

CJ
 
Polovski said:
You need to make sure your CFS EXE is v3.1.x
v3.0 exe has the 50 yard bug.

Right click on shell.exe, properties, version.
Click to expand...

Yep, am up to 3.1. I have the 3.1 update in my CFS3 download folder. so it's always updated before I ever install O.F.F. But what I see are my rounds passing through the target as I'm probably within 100ft of the target. That's how I make sure to get every round on target possible.

I don't have huge scoring sprees by any stretch, as I use the methods best to that of the hunter. I average 2 to 5 kills per month on average. But my best 30 day period was an average of 1 kill every 3 days averaged out over June of 1917. But the drawback was 4 of these kills weren't confirmed.

Tactically one can never go wrong with Dicta Boelke. The only thing I add to it is Erik Hartman's "there is never a kill that is worth the life of a wingman".

Also, when attacking, I fire from slightly to one side of the plane. Preferrably the starboard side, as the pilot has one hand on the throttle, the left side of the cockpit is where it's located so usually harder to look over ones shoulder. But attacking from a slight deflection to one side ensures raking the fuselage from the engine to the cockpit where all the vital areas are. My favorite plane for this is the Alb DIII. A steady gun platform, with few vices. Hit and run boom and zoom tactics work great with it. Even better than RB3D does / did. If the first pass doesn't down them, then usualy only a second one is needed. Only thing that I find as a critical issue, and it could just be me is, the AI still have too good a marksmanship at long ranges. Even at very high deflection shooting, they get about 70% of their rounds on target, even the observers. So I usually use more head-on attacks to get around this. I'm also used to them from the old EAW, and BoB simulators where head-on attacks work the best against the bombers.

So for scouts, I use slight deflection from behind, and lumbering 2 seaters from the front. I receive the least ammount of damage that way, and can go to the aid of squadmate or other friendlies if they need it, as I usually down my opponent quickly this way.
 
Hylander_1314 said:
Yep, am up to 3.1. I have the 3.1 update in my CFS3 download folder. so it's always updated before I ever install O.F.F.
Click to expand...

A 3.1 version of CSF3 only means you have the Microsoft patches installed, but that won't fix the bug.

The 50-yard bug was fixed in one of the last OFF patches, so you need have the latest OFF patch and the hotfix installed.
 
Yep there were a bunch of installers on the OFF disk I got back in the early summer. Patched up to 1.9, including the hotfix.
 
HGey CamelJockey, don't let Catch 22 know you shot down

5 SE5a's:d, and came home with bullets still in the belt:applause:

Good show. The DR I is my favorite, with my best day @ 6 victories:kilroy:

Cheers,

british_eh

Oh, I do fly the Neiuport as an Ausi, and a Sop Tripe, as Francis Drake, so there is some balance

:ernae:
 
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