Yellow nosed 109's

[Pat Pattle]

Hi all,
A historical question... when did the yellow or coloured nose bf109's enter the fray? I have few books on the LW but one I do have "Messerschmitt bf109 in the West 1937-1940 states August 1940. Can anyone confirm this? I always thought it was earlier.
Cheers,
Clive

 

[Bravo/4]

I think they first appeared with the invasion of Poland Clive, they lost a lot of 109's to friendly ground fire, yellow noses were used as a recognition aid AFAIK

 

[Pat Pattle]

Thanks John, that's what I thought. Need to do a bit more digging...

 

[33lima]

Yellow (sometimes white) rapid identification markings started appearing in mid-August 1940. Starting with wingtips and/or a triangular area at the top of the rudder, later the whole motor cowling.

Sources for this are many, but include Michael Payne's 'Bf109 - into the battle' and more recent sources like 'Aces' magazine whose November-December 2017 issue has a piece on JG53's Heinz Bretnutz which has nose profiles showing the Geschwader's particular variations from August 1939 to November 1940, including the 'Rotring' period.

Definitely not a feature in 1939 or before late summer 1940.

 

[Foute Man]

My knowledge of this subject is a bit rusty, but afaik the German response to the friendly fire accidents in Poland was to paint a very large balkenkreuz on the wings.

During the BoB Germans started to paint parts of the tail, wings and nose of fighter aircraft yellow, orange or white as tactical markings. No official order for this has been found, although this does not mean such an order has not been given, as large parts of the Luftwaffe archives have been destroyed at the end of the war. I also believe these colour markings was mostly applied upon aircraft that were part of Luftflotte 2.
Bombers also recieved these tactical markings and there is a discussion going on between historians about what colours were used. White is commonly known, but there are theories about pink being used as well (a good example is the aircraft of 1/KG 76 shot down during the september raids)

It is suggested the painting was done when aircraft were being overhauled, so a certain difference in the marked areas between aircraft of the same staffel was possible. Attached a picture from SAM Combat Coulours No 1, if you're interested in the complete book send me a PM on Facebook

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Hallo Foute Man, how are you doing? Nice to see you around

Definitely not a feature in 1939 or before late summer 1940.

Agree with that, if I recall correctly the formal order to paint the single seat fighters noses in yellow arrived somewhere in early September 1940.

 

[Foute Man]

Hallo Foute Man, how are you doing? Nice to see you around

I'm fine, thank you. Mongoose suggested me last night to pay a visit to SOH, has something to do with BoB I guess

Definitely not a feature in 1939 or before late summer 1940.
Agree with that, if I recall correctly the formal order to paint the single seat fighters noses in yellow arrived somewhere in early September 1940.

It's safe to assume things started in august 1940 with markings on the tail. The painted areas became larger when time progressed. Besides yellow, white and orange were used as well on fighter aircraft. The paint was washable, so could be removed very quickly if required. As I already remarked, markings within the same staffel could be different, as most likely those markings were painted during overhaul, as there was little time to paint the markings between sorties during the height of the BoB.
No official order to paint the markings with a date in july/august 1940 has ever been found. Several possibilities:
- if such an order dated august 1940 existed, it has been lost when parts of the Luftwaffe archives were destroyed
- the practice to paint the markings was an initiative started in the field on unit level and was later on made official by an official directive published in fall 1940

groetuh!!!!

 

[Led Zeppelin]

- the practice to paint the markings was an initiative started in the field on unit level and was later on made official by an official directive published in fall 1940

Yes, absolutely!

 

[Pat Pattle]

Thanks for popping in Ton!
And thanks to John, Ivor and Loic for your help, I've always been impressed by the amount of knowledge on these forums.

That all sounds very much like the RAF with their various under surface colours and roundle types. I'll see if I can find some photos of particular aircraft with dates and start there.

Cheers!

 

[Foute Man]

Thanks for popping in Ton!
And thanks to John, Ivor and Loic for your help, I've always been impressed by the amount of knowledge on these forums.

That all sounds very much like the RAF with their various under surface colours and roundle types. I'll see if I can find some photos of particular aircraft with dates and start there.

Cheers!

Thanks for popping in Ton
And thanks to John, Ivor and Loic for your help, I've always been impressed by the amount of knowledge on these forums.
That all sounds very much like the RAF with their various under surface colours and roundle types. I'll see if I can find some photos of particular aircraft with dates and start there.
Cheers!

Regarding the Bf-109e I could recommend the SAM Combat Colours No 1 by Peter Scott



As I noticed before, I have this book in pdf and could send it to you if you're interested.... Lot's of colour profiles of 1940 bf109e's

Another great source is this series of publications, unfortunately I have not been able to find digital copy on the internet, perhaps some the BoB copy's could make a great father's day present (or an early/late birthday gift)

https://www.wingleader.co.uk/series/luftwaffe-crash-archive

This series is a day by day list of Luftwaffe aircraft crashes, with photo's (if available) and quotes from the official British investigation reports about the crashes


I have a whole list of BoB findings to tell you (again if you're interested). I have an emailadress from you on msn. Is that one still active?

groetuh!!!!

 

[vonernsk]

KICKING DONKEY EMBLEM ON Me109E MID TO LATE 1940

Talking about Me-109e markings during the early stages of WWII, my mother lived in a small village in Kent called Meopham and spent the war there. She re-called going across the village green with her friend one day during the BoB and being buzzed by a Me-109 which then turned back and came past the green at low level with the pilot waving at the two young girls. My mother remarked that the aircraft had a 'kicking Donkey' emblem on the side of the cockpit.

I researched such a marking on an Me-109 in 1940. I tracked it down to an individual pilot who was shot down in the latter part of Sep 1940. Unfortunately I have since lost all of the details of unit and pilot name. . If anyone has seen such a marking on a Me-109e that fought in the BoB I would be grateful to know the reference and source of the information.

Grateful for any info or pointers.
vonernsk

 

[Pat Pattle]

That's a great story vonernsk, could have gone the other way of course I doubt all pilots were so chivalrous...

Thanks for the links Ton, I do feel some book buying coming on, Mrs Pattle loves me having them scattered all over the house!
Roger on the email addy, would be grateful of anything you can send please. Thanks.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Thanks for sharing this story vonernsk