EKA-3 "Whale"

I ounce had a long talk about the A-3 with my granddad, and he told me when he helped test the bird at Pax River, he never dreamed how invaluable the airplane would become to him in his later career as a carrier commander and as a commander of a carrier battle group.

He knew it was a good bomber, but he said he never dreamed of how this thing served the navy the best as a tanker and electronic warfare plane. He did tell me when he first saw her, he thought she was one of the ugliest things he had seen...but she flew like a dream...he was involved with carrier qualifying the Skywarrior during the test program, and he said he wrote a letter to Grandma every time he took the cat shot, and he prayed every time before the trap....
 
I strongly doubt that Marine was a 2nd Lt. More like a Captain at least.

Absolutely - at a minimum, a 1st LT, likely a Marine Captain (O-3). In that period, it took a minimum of 18 months to get through the jet training pipeline and get your wings, then another 6 months in the EA-6B "RAG" type training squadron before getting to a fleet squadron. By that time he would have been at least an O-2.

And as I sometimes like to pull the chain of my Marine friends - remember - Marine pilots are officially designated as "Naval Aviators" when they get their wings. They go through the Navy system, get the same exact training as their Navy cohorts. A certain percentage of flight instructors in ther Naval Air Training Command has to be Marine officers. The system has always worked well.
 
TARPSBird,

thank you very much for the pictures of the panel& VC! Thats very helpful for my decision whether to buy it or not.
Seems there really have been only minor improvements in the panel / cockpit area of the model
compared to the freeware version.

Kind regards and thanks again,


Oliver
 
Absolutely - at a minimum, a 1st LT, likely a Marine Captain (O-3). In that period, it took a minimum of 18 months to get through the jet training pipeline and get your wings, then another 6 months in the EA-6B "RAG" type training squadron before getting to a fleet squadron. By that time he would have been at least an O-2.

And as I sometimes like to pull the chain of my Marine friends - remember - Marine pilots are officially designated as "Naval Aviators" when they get their wings. They go through the Navy system, get the same exact training as their Navy cohorts. A certain percentage of flight instructors in ther Naval Air Training Command has to be Marine officers. The system has always worked well.

Yes in this time frame it was 18 months for any of the three pipelines. The program was flown by US Marines, US Navy and US Coast Guard. There were also some trainees from allied nations that went through the program. In the 60's, all the trainees would have been carrier qualified on the T-2C Buckeye.

An Aviation Cadets training would have started at one of 13 civilian ran schools where they would have been tested and then trained to fly and they would gain a GA type certification. This would be flown on the Beechcraft T-34B Mentor

Then from the introductory or elementary flight school, they proceed to Aviation Cadet Officers course which was a 13 week boot camp for wanna be jet jocks (this part of the training is portrayed in the movie An Officer and a Gentleman).

From there the newly commissioned officers, Ensigns and 2nd Lieutenants (0-1), were sent to either NAS Corpus Christie, Texas or to NAS Whiting Field (North), Florida to begin primary Student Flight Officer program. Here during the 60's, the training was flown on North American T-28B/C Trojan piston engine trainers, but in 1973, the Beechcraft T-34C Turbo Mentor was phased in. Also some pilots took the basic course at NAS Memphis.

From primary, those still in the Student Flight Officers course, were shifted to NAS Pensacola for basic and jet conversion training on North American T-2C Buckeye, here is where they really get a taste of naval aviation and carrier operations. By the end of the basic course all the nuggets to be were carrier qualified in fixed wing aircraft and had at least three traps and shots off the USS Lexington or the USS Antietam (if it was the early 60's). Once they finished basic course at NAS Pensacola, then the powers to be would decide what pipeline to drop them in.

If they were selected for carrier jet aviation (fighters or attack) then they stayed at NAS Pensacola for advanced training, and after 18 months they became Naval Aviators with the rank of Lieutenant (Junior Grade) or 1st Lieutenant (O-2). For the greater part of the decade, the advanced training was flown on the Grumman TF-9J Cougar, but 1968, the Douglas TA-4J became the advanced trainer.

Those selected for the rotary wing pipeline were sent back to NAS Whiting Field (South) for the primary helicopter training. Once they graduated that as O-2, they would receive their advanced training at their Fleet Readiness Squadron. Here, until 1969, the pilots were trained on the Bell TH-13M, until the phase in of the Bell TH-57 Sea Ranger.

Those selected for the land based aviation were sent to NAS Corpus Christie for multi engine training. The main birds here were T-39 Sabreliner, TS-2 Trackers and a few others. Again once they graduated as O-2 they were sent to Fleet Readiness Squadrons to complete training....

Regardless of the pipeline, before you reached the Fleet Readiness Squadrons, the "Nugget" had at least 18 months of training, some had more because of recycles due to illness or injury.

Up until the advanced phase of training everyone had to complete the same requirements.
 
Just like to add that Virtavia has re-released the B-66 as well. I had it freeware but certain things like the bomb bay doors wouldn't open. (There were three planes in the pack, only one would've had an opening bomb bay, but it still didn't work.) Bought the B-66 when it was for sale at FS Pilotshop. They had upgraded the textures a bit but the VC was still pretty plain jane (as is the Skywarrior's) but they are both still fun to blast around in and at least everything works! I do have a question about the A3D though. When I bring it aboard ship with about 20% fuel it wants to land full flaps at around 100kts. (I have to pop the boards at the cut as well.) To me this just seems too slow for such a big jet. Is it the big wing giving me some ground effect over the deck? What was the trap speed on a Whale?
 
Yes in this time frame it was 18 months for any of the three pipelines. The program was flown by US Marines, US Navy and US Coast Guard. There were also some trainees from allied nations that went through the program. In the 60's, all the trainees would have been carrier qualified on the T-2C Buckeye.

An Aviation Cadets training would have started at one of 13 civilian ran schools where they would have been tested and then trained to fly and they would gain a GA type certification. This would be flown on the Beechcraft T-34B Mentor

Then from the introductory or elementary flight school, they proceed to Aviation Cadet Officers course which was a 13 week boot camp for wanna be jet jocks (this part of the training is portrayed in the movie An Officer and a Gentleman).

From there the newly commissioned officers, Ensigns and 2nd Lieutenants (0-1), were sent to either NAS Corpus Christie, Texas or to NAS Whiting Field (North), Florida to begin primary Student Flight Officer program. Here during the 60's, the training was flown on North American T-28B/C Trojan piston engine trainers, but in 1973, the Beechcraft T-34C Turbo Mentor was phased in. Also some pilots took the basic course at NAS Memphis.

From primary, those still in the Student Flight Officers course, were shifted to NAS Pensacola for basic and jet conversion training on North American T-2C Buckeye, here is where they really get a taste of naval aviation and carrier operations. By the end of the basic course all the nuggets to be were carrier qualified in fixed wing aircraft and had at least three traps and shots off the USS Lexington or the USS Antietam (if it was the early 60's). Once they finished basic course at NAS Pensacola, then the powers to be would decide what pipeline to drop them in.

If they were selected for carrier jet aviation (fighters or attack) then they stayed at NAS Pensacola for advanced training, and after 18 months they became Naval Aviators with the rank of Lieutenant (Junior Grade) or 1st Lieutenant (O-2). For the greater part of the decade, the advanced training was flown on the Grumman TF-9J Cougar, but 1968, the Douglas TA-4J became the advanced trainer.

Those selected for the rotary wing pipeline were sent back to NAS Whiting Field (South) for the primary helicopter training. Once they graduated that as O-2, they would receive their advanced training at their Fleet Readiness Squadron. Here, until 1969, the pilots were trained on the Bell TH-13M, until the phase in of the Bell TH-57 Sea Ranger.

Those selected for the land based aviation were sent to NAS Corpus Christie for multi engine training. The main birds here were T-39 Sabreliner, TS-2 Trackers and a few others. Again once they graduated as O-2 they were sent to Fleet Readiness Squadrons to complete training....

Regardless of the pipeline, before you reached the Fleet Readiness Squadrons, the "Nugget" had at least 18 months of training, some had more because of recycles due to illness or injury.

Up until the advanced phase of training everyone had to complete the same requirements.

You are mixing and matching some different programs, though. NAVCAD/ MARCADs started as officer candidates, Academy and NROTC commissioned officers were somewhat different initially, but ground school / flight syllabus were the same in any of three pipelines.

In my day (USNA 1965), I started at Pensacola in the T-34B as an Ensign in June, asked for and got selected for basic jet training, went to NAS Meridian in the T-2A in Ocvtober. Then a short period back to mainside PCOLA in the T-2A for initial day carrier quals in May 1966. All basic jet was this way - Meridian had VT-7 and VT-9, PCOLA mainside had VT-4.

Then we went either to NAS Kingsville or NAS Beeville Texas. Each base had three VT squadrons with TF-9Js and a few AF-9Js. Actually each base had one of the squadrons flying F-11Fs, and a finishing student would spend a little time there for ACM, but that was eventually phased out.

I got my wings in Nov 1966; anyway, lots of moving around, flying some pretty strange stuff by today's standards, hot as hell in the summer, but what a slice of life!
 
Mike thanks for the clarification...a lot of my list up there was based on what my granddad told me when he was an instructor. My Granddad though was from the old navy..he started his career in the USN in 1940, after he came over from Germany in 37....
 
Just like to add that Virtavia has re-released the B-66 as well. I had it freeware but certain things like the bomb bay doors wouldn't open. (There were three planes in the pack, only one would've had an opening bomb bay, but it still didn't work.) Bought the B-66 when it was for sale at FS Pilotshop. They had upgraded the textures a bit but the VC was still pretty plain jane (as is the Skywarrior's) but they are both still fun to blast around in and at least everything works! I do have a question about the A3D though. When I bring it aboard ship with about 20% fuel it wants to land full flaps at around 100kts. (I have to pop the boards at the cut as well.) To me this just seems too slow for such a big jet. Is it the big wing giving me some ground effect over the deck? What was the trap speed on a Whale?

50, 000 lb max trap weight, Cambered Leading Edge wing/slats ("CLEO" wing), full flaps (36 deg) speedbrakes out, approach power -123 KIAS with an "donut" in the indexer. unfortunately a lot of the stuff in the Alpha/Virtavia aircraft cfg is a mixture of B-66 and A-3 stuff as well as some nonsense.

Full flaps on an A-3 was 36 degrees, no intermediate positions except a STOP feature - 1/2 flaps selected with STOP for SE approaches.

The Virtavia model has the improved CLEO full LE slats, which, like the A-4 were totally aerodynamic - no connection to flap position, only responding to angle of attack. Their simulation is not perfect, but reasonable.

Seems like you are making a gliding approach. speedbrakes in, maybe flaring - DON'T FLARE!! DRAG the airplane on approach - typically only 10% above stall speed in the real world, flying the back side of the power curve with the boards OUT! On speed, the hookpoint should be level or lower than the MLG - you DO NOT take a cut in a jet - you land with approach power at approach rate of descent. At touchdown, you go full power and retract the speedbrakes simultaneously; if you caught a wire, you ain't a-goin' ANYWHERE! Otherwise, your engines spool to full power quickly and the boards are in for a bolter with adequate speed. If you trap, pull throttles to idle and the gear tugs the plane aft to create slack so the hook can be raised (on signal from the director), followed by wingfold and taxi clear of he landing area (both on signal).

I think a long term solution to this decent model is to break it up into several different aircraft - I am starting with the KA-3B. The aircraft.cfg files need to be different. For one thing, fuel capacities are different, as well as tank arrangements. Also, flap position and lift factors need changing to get proper speeds. Also annotations as to max weights for airfield vs carrier ops.
 
Mike thanks for the clarification...a lot of my list up there was based on what my granddad told me when he was an instructor. My Granddad though was from the old navy..he started his career in the USN in 1940, after he came over from Germany in 37....
Sounds cool; I loved talking to the old hands that had flown jets in Korea and were squadron CO's when I was a nugget. Always something to learn about the past.
 
50, 000 lb max trap weight, Cambered Leading Edge wing/slats ("CLEO" wing), full flaps (36 deg) speedbrakes out, approach power -123 KIAS with an "donut" in the indexer. unfortunately a lot of the stuff in the Alpha/Virtavia aircraft cfg is a mixture of B-66 and A-3 stuff as well as some nonsense.

Full flaps on an A-3 was 36 degrees, no intermediate positions except a STOP feature - 1/2 flaps selected with STOP for SE approaches.

The Virtavia model has the improved CLEO full LE slats, which, like the A-4 were totally aerodynamic - no connection to flap position, only responding to angle of attack. Their simulation is not perfect, but reasonable.

Seems like you are making a gliding approach. speedbrakes in, maybe flaring - DON'T FLARE!! DRAG the airplane on approach - typically only 10% above stall speed in the real world, flying the back side of the power curve with the boards OUT! On speed, the hookpoint should be level or lower than the MLG - you DO NOT take a cut in a jet - you land with approach power at approach rate of descent. At touchdown, you go full power and retract the speedbrakes simultaneously; if you caught a wire, you ain't a-goin' ANYWHERE! Otherwise, your engines spool to full power quickly and the boards are in for a bolter with adequate speed. If you trap, pull throttles to idle and the gear tugs the plane aft to create slack so the hook can be raised (on signal from the director), followed by wingfold and taxi clear of he landing area (both on signal).

I think a long term solution to this decent model is to break it up into several different aircraft - I am starting with the KA-3B. The aircraft.cfg files need to be different. For one thing, fuel capacities are different, as well as tank arrangements. Also, flap position and lift factors need changing to get proper speeds. Also annotations as to max weights for airfield vs carrier ops.

I should caveat my comment about jets (and E-2/C-2) taking a cut - this is for an Angle Deck Carrier; early jets on straight deck Carriers did take a cut, there was no bolter capability. Also, for a barricade arrestment, the plane ideally touches down short of the barricade, the LSO calls for a CUT to lessen the stress on the webbing on engagement. Obviously, no bolter option - only a waveoff option - on an approach with the barricade rigged.

On Angled Deck Carriers, we operated piston props well into the 70's at least. The S-2, C-1 and A-1 series specifically. These airplanes did take a cut to land, but on a bolter, engine acceleration and deck run required was not a problem. The turboprop E-2 and C-2 do, however, go to full power on touchdown. They do not have any speedbrakes, but engine spool up is very quick compared to a pure jet engine.
 
Bjoern,

not exactly the very picture that you mentioned, but along the same lines :) or even better
if one likes the whale:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/2_A3s_&_an_A4_tanking.jpg

Though the accompanying text in wikipedia mentioned this as a publicity stunt staged for
the photograph, as this chain refueling normally isn't done.

However Wikipedia isn't always right or correct in its information.

I'm sure the knowledgeable guys like Mike71 could tell you about it
with more certainty.

Kind Regards,

Oliver
 
Bjoern,

not exactly the very picture that you mentioned, but along the same lines :) or even better
if one likes the whale:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/2_A3s_&_an_A4_tanking.jpg

Though the accompanying text in wikipedia mentioned this as a publicity stunt staged for
the photograph, as this chain refueling normally isn't done.

However Wikipedia isn't always right or correct in its information.

I'm sure the knowledgeable guys like Mike71 could tell you about it
with more certainty.

Kind Regards,

Oliver

Yeah - just for publicity. However, tankers normally do tank other tankers - called "consolidation" - when the tanker "low" on fuel ( not much more to give away, must keep the remainder for himself), will land during the normal recovery, the oncoming tanker will top off from the offgoing tanker to keep max fuel in the air. The oncoming tanker would have burned a couple thousand pounds of fuel during taxi/launch/climb and rendezvous. Standard practice.
 
Bjoern,

not exactly the very picture that you mentioned, but along the same lines :) or even better
if one likes the whale:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/2_A3s_&_an_A4_tanking.jpg

Though the accompanying text in wikipedia mentioned this as a publicity stunt staged for
the photograph, as this chain refueling normally isn't done.

However Wikipedia isn't always right or correct in its information.

I'm sure the knowledgeable guys like Mike71 could tell you about it
with more certainty.

Kind Regards,

Oliver

Yeah - just for publicity. However, tankers normally do tank other tankers - called "consolidation" - when the tanker "low" on fuel ( not much more to give away, must keep the remainder for himself), will land during the normal recovery, the oncoming tanker will top off from the offgoing tanker to keep max fuel in the air. The oncoming tanker would have burned a couple thousand pounds of fuel during taxi/launch/climb and rendezvous. Standard practice.

Thanks, guys!

I dove off into the web again to find that photo, but no joy. Will upload it once I get back to my desktop PC.

Instead found a rather hilarious setup of an EA-3B sucking a poor A-4B dry: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/A-4B_VA-216_refuels_EA-3B_VQ-2_1967.jpeg
The Wikimedia page generally has some cool shots of the Whale in all its glory: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Douglas_A-3_Skywarrior
 
Good picture, and no joke. As small as the A-4 was, it had a reasonable amount of "give" for recovery. The Whale needed about 900 lbs per pass at night, maybe 700 day. A hit on an A-4 could give him two more passes in most instances (maybe only one other plane needing fuel). The D-704 "buddy store" held 2000 lbs on its own, and internal fuel could be transferred into it.

This looks like an A-4C, not an A-4B. The B had a very short nose, the A-4C had a radar with a slightly longer nose and a discernible radome. I got a lot of time in the A-4 series, just about all of them except the A-4A.
 
Good picture, and no joke. As small as the A-4 was, it had a reasonable amount of "give" for recovery. The Whale needed about 900 lbs per pass at night, maybe 700 day. A hit on an A-4 could give him two more passes in most instances (maybe only one other plane needing fuel). The D-704 "buddy store" held 2000 lbs on its own, and internal fuel could be transferred into it.

This looks like an A-4C, not an A-4B. The B had a very short nose, the A-4C had a radar with a slightly longer nose and a discernible radome. I got a lot of time in the A-4 series, just about all of them except the A-4A.

But didn't such a small fuel margin put the tanker in dire straits? Who'd land first, Whale or tanker?


Any retrofitted B models?
 
The Whale would land first; the tanker would keep a decent amount of fuel for itself - probably 3 passes max, but if he really had to help out too many airplanes, a standby tanker would have been launched off the waist in the middle of the recovery (takes two planes going around to make the time/space to shoot and button up the waist cat again). Remember - the tanker has more than 2000 lbs to give away - an A-4 could transfer about 3500 lbs total if necessary and still land with max fuel for himself. An A-7, KA-6D or KS-3, much better. Also, the tanker has flown overhead at max endurance for its whole cycle, except when it would accel out a little to 250 KIAS to refuel (standard refuel speed). In the end, the tanker lands last, and everyone knows he / she is the hero of the night if the pilot gets aboard, a little tight on fuel, on the first pass.
 
How often was the buddy store flown on the Scooters? The KA-6Ds were reportedly the most (ab)used airframes aboard and therefor had a rather short life, so was the standard practice putting it on older A-4s that were slated for retirement anyway?
 
How often was the buddy store flown on the Scooters? The KA-6Ds were reportedly the most (ab)used airframes aboard and therefor had a rather short life, so was the standard practice putting it on older A-4s that were slated for retirement anyway?

First - a buddy store is a removable item; it hangs on a station with two-way plumbing. It can be moved/removed easily from any type of plane equipped to carry it - A-4 series, A-7 series, A-6 series, S-3 series, and a newer type for the F/A-18. These buddy stores were always stashed for ready use on the Hangar Deck or Flight Deck, and only took a few minutes to rig an airplane with one. A buddy store has electrical hookups to the airplane electrical system, and a small control panel that was placed in the left side console easily with a quick disconnect cannon plug. However, the hose reel is a hydraulic system, independent of the airplane, self contained within the store housing and driven by a Ram Air Turbine that turns at constant speed. I think we could get down to 220 KIAS and it would still spin fast enough, and I recall about 300 KIAS being about the max speed to stay within the RAT governing range.

On a converted ESSEX Class, there were two cases:

1 Mid-late Vietnam, arresting gear was upgraded and typically 4 plane KA-3B dets deployed on these "27 Charlie"s as strike tankers. Usually an A-4 (later A-7A or A-7B) would also launch and stay overhead as a recovery tanker for the recovery immediately following completion of that launch. A strike Whale would head out with the strike, top off the planes that would definitely need it while the strike was enroute outbound. The Whale then would hang outside the threat area, the strike would meet it on the way back, taking on fuel as needed. Depending on the size of the strike package, maybe two Whales and some A-4 or A-7s would also have buddy stores. The A-7 had no centerline station, so the D-704 was carried on the inboard starboard wing station as I recall. This station provided the plumbing to transfer aircraft fuel into the buddy store as needed.

2. In almost any case, an A-4 or A-7 would also be launched for tanker duty with a buddy store, if nothing else than to keep pilots proficient for practice tanking while waiting for recovery. A baby tanker would launch, immediately rendezvous with the off going tanker, consolidate fuel and take station at 5000 MSL and max endurance to "hawk" the recovery to help out where needed.

Large deck Carriers - when the A-6 came along, it really helped. A straight bomber could carry 4 drops plus a D-704 on the centerline station - that was a lot of gas in the air. The A-6 also took up a lot less room than an A-3 and was easier to handle on the Flight Deck and a good airplane for carrier approaches. Older A-6As were reworked into KA-6Ds by ripping out the weapons system and putting in a high capacity hose reel system in the rear fuselage. This hose system pumped gas faster than a D-704 and was very reliable. A KA-6D would also normally carry a D-704 on the centerline as a backup in case the main hose failed. A D-704 held the same amount as a standard Aero 1D 300 gal drop tank anyway - 2000 lbs. The KA-6D was around for quite awhile, extremely successful and well liked. A-6 squadrons might deploy with 10 A-6Es and 4 KA-6Ds.

The D-704 was not perfect, but it was a hell of a lot better than nothing - especially with an airwing that had F-8s and F-4s, which typically got in trouble after at most, two bolters. usually fuel pump transfer failure would be the problem, but not that big a deal. if the package was checked out right after launch and it worked during consolidation, it would stay in good shape. if a hydraulic failure occurred with the hose out, it could be guillotined - Yup! You either did that or pickled the whole store because the damage to the aircraft on deck would be considerable if a tanker landed with it extended. Same with a Whale or KA-6D or KS-3B. Hoses all could be cut. However you can't pickle an internal package from a Whale, KA-6D or KS-3B, so a major evolution of getting as much deck space cleared as possible has to be carried out before landing one of those with a trailing hose.
 
Wonderful info, thank you!


Guillotining unresponsive hoses is still current. Although more modern pods tend have a jackscrew mechanism or something that unscrews the hose connector to obtain a cleaner separation.
 
Back
Top