Is lack of communications delaying dev. of some classics?

[ColoKent]

Doc, first off, I am not here to start an argument.

However, let me make certain I understand what you’ve just posted. What I **think** I just read in your post (summed up) is that “...unless and until you’ve been a developer, any comment that you make on this topic is just your opinion.” I agree....it is just my opinion. Then you continue by implying that if I were a developer, or a coder, or a modeler, my view would somehow more “valid”. If that is what you are saying, I disagree with you on that point.

Two inaccuracies in your post I would like to respectfully correct: a.) I specifically excluded freeware developers from my comments, and stated that explicitly in a post above, and b.) I disagree that pointing out potential ways for payware developers to increase their focus on their customer base by improving communication with them could be categorized as “besmirching” them...unless of course, they are simply uninterested in what their customer base has to say in the first place....which for some companies and developers, clearly is the case.

You make the point that, “...in many cases, payware developers spend their own money to develop products”. I’m glad to hear that, since that is required to grow a business...and it doesn’t automatically indicate any altruistic motive for the flight sim community, since virtually every business owner “spends their own money” to improve their ability to generate profit...I’ve owned my own company for years, and I too, “spend our own money” to enhance my ability to increase profits.

Doc....you are certainly right about having the option to buy from a developer or not, but that doesn’t negate or invalidate the original underlying issue. The issue still exists, and after your latest post, I now have a much clearer understanding of why. Doc....Thanks for hearing me out.

Regards,

Kent

 

[wombat666]

The bottom line is that keeping your customers up to date and excited about what you are doing for them is a core business principle.
Just my .02 cents.Kent

It is an admirable approach until one gets hassled (and in certain instances vilified) by 'possible' prospective buyers who lack patience and understanding of the process.
The number of developers who have suffered that indignity here on our forum has been minimal, but it is not only ill mannered, it is counter productive.
My A$00.02 is worth about half of your BTW.


A footnote: I do get grumpy about the apparent lack of communication between Developers.
Aside from the amount of effort as detailed by Doc, duplication of subjects divides the market place and any financial gain.
If egos were taken out of the equation it would be fairly straight forward for operations to not turn out the same product that often hits the market at the same time, eg, two DHC3 Otters is probably not a good idea.

 

[ColoKent]

If egos were taken out of the equation it would be fairly straight forward for operations to not turn out the same product that often hits the market at the same time, eg, two DHC3 Otters is probably not a good idea.

Can’t disagree with you there. The depressing thing I am taking away from this thread is that my long standing impressions about churlish attitudes and thought processes in the business end of this hobby have, to say the least, not been alleviated. It seems that many (but not all) developers/payware companies are completely “tone deaf” regarding their customers, and often cannot tolerate anything other accolades and a “sunshine story” regarding anything they think, say or do. And that’s unfortunate, since one of the few things I’ve learned in 56+ years crawling the planet, is that individuals and organizations don’t improve without being able to take a critical look at themselves, their operations, and their action...and then be willing to own up to those shortfalls, and take action to improve. Doc and I certainly agree on one thing: It is “sad”...although our reasons for that characterization apparently differ.

Regards,

Kent

 

[docjohnson]

Kent and others,

Thanks for the responses. This is not an argument, its a matter of disagreement during a discussion about how payware companies should collaborate. I'm not a business person, I'm a retired veteran/aircrew (B-52D/G/H, HC/MC-130), a retired software architect/developer, and a father and grandfather. I don't have a business bone in my body. So to be clear this isn't a business to me it's just a hobby that for the time I invest in it lets me enjoy something I'm no longer physically able to do - fly - even if it is virtual. I don't even care if I get paid (although my wife would be pissed if I didn't). And that time away from my wife, my sons and my grandkids are worth more than the money I might make on anything I do in this hobby. They know my passion for military aviation and understand.

As to organizations who do or don't communicate intent about a particular airframe in development, again it's not a business, I work on what I want to work on. That's it. The owners of payware companies can haggle over what aircraft to build or not. I choose what aircraft I will participate in the development of. And there is something more important to me and that is if two companies are building the same aircraft, is to collaborate on different models. Not worry about if they are producing the same airframe. I would like to see them share code or at least executables. Frankly, I think a lot of the common code for an aircraft project should be open source! For the record, I do know that there is, in fact, collaboration between at least 3 companies. Two of them have produced the same aircraft just different models (I'm speaking of models in terms of how for instance a B-52D differs from a B-52H as an example). So there is communication like what you're talking about occurring. Do I wish there was more, you bet. And I actually can tell you that for myself, (I think my modeler would agree), I don't care if someone has already produced or is producing an aircraft, if I want to build it and think I can do it better, then I don't care if there is one in production or out on the market, I'm building it. Its a market after all.

And I'm not saying that your point has or hasn't any validity. What I'm saying is I'm tired of people who aren't doing development commenting on how to do the "business" when it's not a business for us. If I hadn't gone from just a consumer to a producer, then I would not care about this post. Since that is not the case, I would like to point out (as others in my position probably feel) all it does is demoralize us (to a degree) and make us wonder if all the time we put into is even worth it. Pay or no pay. I would suggest the better way is to have that conversation directly with the people who own the payware companies, not with the workers who produce the product freeware or payware. Your issue isn't with us it's with the owner-operators of the "business." Our time away from our loved ones to produce the "product" is worth more money than anyone could possibly pay for.

Enough armchair dog fighting...got SimObject code to write. Thanks for listening.

 

[jmig]

Doc, Allow me to offer an analogy. Besides flight simulation, I have another hobby. It is photography, primarily nature photography. I am a very good photograper. I have won numerous awards on both my photographs and body of work. I have been asked many times if I am a pro and sell my photographs. My answer is always the same. No!

I am an amateur photographer. If you like a photo I took, I will give you a print, or charge for the printing only. I know that as soon as I start selling photographs, I have to start meeting expectations. When you ask people to hand over hard earned money, you are now, to a degree, owned by them. They expect something in return. If your offering does not meet their expectations, they will most likely complain. Their complaints may be off base and unrealistic, in your view. However, their complains are very realistic in their view. Another sage adage from the world of business goes like this; a customer's view is their reality. If you want to deal with them, it becomes your reality.

Amateur freeware developers were once the backbone of flight simulation. Many became payware developers and found out the true meaning of the saying, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I applaud developers, both freeware and payware. Without them this hobby would be rather limited. They open new worlds and give us wings. They create beauty and excitement. I thank them with by heartfelt thanks and my money. Still, I and all the flightsim customers throughout the world retain the right to complain, rightly or wrongly. In a perfect world, complains would be held to actual verifiable items, AND PD3 would never crash to the desktop.



Keep up the good work, Doc. We need you and all the other developers out there. But, remember we will still, at times, be children.

 

[ColoKent]

Doc...thanks for the response— and honesty. I happened to take a quick look at your profile last night and saw the BUFF pic...and figured you (like me) had been “SACumsized” in a previous life (ICBM crew for me...the AF seems to not want blind people on aircrew— don’t know why!?)...

I echo John’s appreciation for your efforts— the challenges inherent in that endeavor or it’s value to the community was/is never in question.

Regards,

Kent

 

[wombat666]

Could I simply say that this conversation has been very interesting and very polite.
Kudos to all involved, and FWIW I have learned a lot.

 

[docjohnson]

Thank you all for the kind words. And Insight as well. Yep SAC where men are men and sheep are nervous! LOL Kent, I agree as a consumer you have the right to complain. And thanks for that analogy, it makes much more sense and I understand. All in all, I will still always try to insolate myself from customer support. My time is better spent designing and coding systems of systems. Sure I like to participate in the testing and eventually getting to fly the ship without all the instrumentation on the code. But first line support to customers, I just don't have the temperament for it...hmmm, I think it might have something to do with being a sergeant for 18 years... As someone said before, I prefer not to be someone's butt monkey. Unless its something I screwed up, then I will gladly help put the fix in. And I have had thoughts of just hanging the development part up and just go back to flying in the simulator. But I'm having too much fun. Thanks for understanding, all of you.

 

[pilto von pilto]

Disclaimer. Opinions are mine and mine alone.

There is more to the issue than just lack of communication from devs. There is the toxicity of the community. There is the size of the market VS business expectations and then there is the history of the payware business. All except the first one have been alluded to in earlier posts. so I'll make this short.

Read Ash's ( probably not his real name ) comment on the aerosoft airbus on fselite :
"Flight sim developers have to be some of the most inept and pathetic developers in the history of the software industry. "

https://fselite.net/previews/aerosoft-january-update-airbus-professional-series/#comments for more if you're interested

Then add to that these (generic names to save the innocent )
" nice but it had better go some to beat company X and Y's version "
" Nope wont buy it as I dont like Company Z or I just am waiting on company X or Y "
" Nice plane but I wish Company V was making it " <-- this one is used ALOT.
" Nice plane but Company Z arent known for their systems so we really still need this project."

Then ask why a developer might not want to engage with a community that is like that. Would you like to interact with someone like that or a community that tacitly approves of comments like that ? If you dont like the heat stay out of the kitchen is fine but then when you find that there are no cooks left and you're eating 2 minute noodles everyday you might think different. The dev community is too small to tell all of them to leave the kitchen.

This is a niche market of a niche market. A little respect and understanding from both sides can ensure a thriving market and possibly increase the communication between dev and consumer.

Lastly I hope that anyone reading this can see that this is just a differing opinion, different to yours possibly but not an attack on any individual or idealogy.

 

[ColoKent]

There is more to the issue than just lack of communication from devs. There is the toxicity of the community.

Good point...it's not completely a one-sided issue-- people (customers) in the community CAN be pretty toxic at times.

Then ask why a developer might not want to engage with a community that is like that...Would you like to interact with someone like that or a community that tacitly approves of comments like that ?

Because it is part of their business to engage with the community if they hope to grow their business. And I agree with you, dealing with people who are "emotionally wanting" is draining, I know...So I recognize it is painful. On a positive note, as Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies, "A man has got to recognize his limitations...", and I relatively recently saw a senior member of a major developer say "Hey...apparently I am too hard nosed in responding to customers...so XYZ will be answering queries from here forward." And I thought that was actually an astute and emotionally mature approach.

A little respect and understanding from both sides can ensure a thriving market and possibly increase the communication between dev and consumer.

You're absolutely right...I agree...but people on both sides do get emotional.

Good points.

Kent