T
tigisfat
Guest
.......edited.
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The Staff of SOH
Every time this subject comes up I want to go on a rant, but I’ll won’t because there is no good reason to do so. I’ll just say this:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
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Stealing is illegal and immoral, but anything can be made illegal by governments. In their zeal to stop pirating of software and music, activities are being made illegal that didn’t use to be illegal.<o></o>
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That’s a good analogy. So, public libraries should be shut down, then, and all librarians arrested because anyone can sit there are read JK Rowling books all day without paying for them. How does that not fall under the definition of "pirating" these days?
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Right, and “Illegal and unauthorized” now = making a backup copy for yourself. That makes me a “criminal.” Where does this end?<o></o>
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That’s my only problem with all the posts suggesting these people should be killed.
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></o>Stealing is illegal and immoral, but anything can be made illegal by governments. In their zeal to stop pirating of software and music, activities are being made illegal that didn’t use to be illegal.<o
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></o>That’s a good analogy. So, public libraries should be shut down, then, and all librarians arrested because anyone can sit there are read JK Rowling books all day without paying for them. How does that not fall under the definition of "pirating" these days?
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></o>Right, and “Illegal and unauthorized” now = making a backup copy for yourself. That makes me a “criminal.” Where does this end?<o
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></o>That’s my only problem with all the posts suggesting these people should be killed.
I have never believed that an illegal download equals a lost sale. There are many pirates out there who would never pay for software or addons despite the cost. What is a potential lost sale are the people who would gladly pay for an addon if the illegal download was not so easily available.
It is incredibly naive and narrow minded to assume or argue that every illegal download is a lost sale. On the other hand it is also incredibly naive and narrow minded to argue that every illegal download was never going to be a sale. The truth is if it wasn't so easy to find illegal payware on a torrent site the number of potential sales would increase. Not dramatically, maybe as low as 10 or 15% at best, but it would still be a welcome increase.
As an example years ago I had many friends who would purchase all of their Amiga games from a local pirate. When the pirate was caught and this source was removed my friends were left with no alternative but to purchase original games between them and share. The only reason they used the pirate was because he made games easily and cheaply available. The point is that without the temptation and lure of cheap easily available and illegal alternatives the only other option is to purchase the original. Not everyone will do this but many certainly would.
It is incredibly naive and narrow minded to assume or argue that every illegal download is a lost sale. On the other hand it is also incredibly naive and narrow minded to argue that every illegal download was never going to be a sale. The truth is if it wasn't so easy to find illegal payware on a torrent site the number of potential sales would increase. Not dramatically, maybe as low as 10 or 15% at best, but it would still be a welcome increase.
As an example years ago I had many friends who would purchase all of their Amiga games from a local pirate. When the pirate was caught and this source was removed my friends were left with no alternative but to purchase original games between them and share. The only reason they used the pirate was because he made games easily and cheaply available. The point is that without the temptation and lure of cheap easily available and illegal alternatives the only other option is to purchase the original. Not everyone will do this but many certainly would.
Copyright ='s ownership. No matter what it maybe if it's taken/downloaded/shared illegally it's stealing. Stealing ='s lost profit. That doesn't seem naive to me; it seems like the law.
PRB, I don't think anyone would actually kill someone over piracy. Seem's to me like some venting going on. Basic human over re-action.
PRB, I don't think anyone would actually kill someone over piracy. Seem's to me like some venting going on. Basic human over re-action.
I understand all this but I am just saying. Although it sucks for the dev to spend all that time on a product just to have it pirated, It is never going to stop. They should be thankful that they do have loyal customers since they could so easily pirate it. If you hate pirating that much you should stop developing planes because whatever you do, it will be pirated. Just know that the loyal customers will miss your work if you do leave. And to whoever said that dev's shouldn't be happy that they DO have customers, you are very very wrong. The day a dev stops appreciating my money is the day i stop buying from them. They should be thankful they are getting a sale. Not just sitting in a corner moaning about how people ARE pirating it because nothing will ever change that.
Every time this subject comes up I want to go on a rant, but I’ll won’t because there is no good reason to do so. I’ll just say this:<o
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Stealing is illegal and immoral, but anything can be made illegal by governments. In their zeal to stop pirating of software and music, activities are being made illegal that didn’t use to be illegal.<o
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Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by CBris
… Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies...
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That’s a good analogy. So, public libraries should be shut down, then, and all librarians arrested because anyone can sit there are read JK Rowling books all day without paying for them. How does that not fall under the definition of "pirating" these days?
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<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by CBris
Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.
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Right, and “Illegal and unauthorized” now = making a backup copy for yourself. That makes me a “criminal.” Where does this end?<o
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That’s my only problem with all the posts suggesting these people should be killed.
Interesting views, but...
a. Public libraries pay for the right to allow public reading of copyrighted products. The (c) owners are reimbursed.
b. The private backup copy has been and still is a long discussion that is a separate entity in its own right. It'll probably never get answered satisfactorily.
c. This subject is picking up a lot of intensity right now in several fora. It won't cure the situation, but it lets a few of us onto our soapboxes...
You keep claiming to understanding what has been said here, are you sure you do? Many of us have already answered this point over and over yet you still keep repeating it. I will answer it one more time...
Not one single post here disagreed with your point that piracy will NEVER EVER go away. We know we have paying customers and we do appreciate them, if they didn't exist payware would not exist. We are not sitting in a corner moaning about "all those lost sales". We are referring to the fact that it is a simple case of doing a quick internet search to find illegal copies of our payware addons. After one single search in piratebay I found hundreds of illegal torrents for FSX payware addons. If this easily available source (and other like it) were to be removed It would make it harder for people to find illegal downloads. I know from experience that many people know of no other way to get illegal downloads other than torrents.
So to recap.
1. This thread was started to debate the fact that the piratebay are on trial. Any responses I have given are in relation to this.
1. We agree that piracy will never go away. Your argument that "piracy will never go away" does not mean nothing should be done to stop it.
2. We respect our paying customers and always will. We always offer advice and try to help them with problems and listen to their criticisms.
3. What we are arguing for is the removal of such an easy source for illegal downloading of payware addons or other software.
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
Well put ICDP.
It doesn't feel like stealing when you look at your monitor, click on a linky and start and finish a download. During this process you'll never have to look around for security cams, the shop owner or other customers. You don't have to hide anything in your pockets or any place else. The 'abstract' internet environment itself makes that a lot of people that would never steal from a shop, will now without hesitation download something illegal.
I think that basically means that most developers are screwed and should focus their main attention on making it highly appealing to buy something, rather than trying to spend a lot of time hunting down anyone who downloads illegal stuff.
DLC, if used properly and if appealing enough to the customer is an example of this. Small additions to a game, for a small fee.
As for TPB. We'll see. It won't help, no matter the outcome. A trial like this in the best case may make the life of those owners a bit more miserable but it won't change the attitude of the downloaders even a single bit. For that you'll have to find a way to reach them and I simply wouldn't know how to make that work. Can't say I have thought about it that much either though.
I guess that's my opinion. :typing:
I think that basically means that most developers are screwed and should focus their main attention on making it highly appealing to buy something, rather than trying to spend a lot of time hunting down anyone who downloads illegal stuff.
DLC, if used properly and if appealing enough to the customer is an example of this. Small additions to a game, for a small fee.
As for TPB. We'll see. It won't help, no matter the outcome. A trial like this in the best case may make the life of those owners a bit more miserable but it won't change the attitude of the downloaders even a single bit. For that you'll have to find a way to reach them and I simply wouldn't know how to make that work. Can't say I have thought about it that much either though.
I guess that's my opinion. :typing:
Francois
FS Veteran
So, please please please, do NOT buy my products then !
I am running this discussion on the simFlight news page, and I've read the reactions here too.
Just wondering if 'I' am the one living on a different planet or some of the 'opponents' are.
I have seen some unbelievable (to me) ways of arguing this topic, some bordering on sheer stupidity.
I for the life of me can not understand which part of the act of STEALING is legit. And whether or not I really 'miss' a sale because of an illegal copy, how does that copying suddenly is NOT illegal?
Also, which part of the name PIRATE Bay is not clear to some?
Sheez, folks..... go sit in a dark corner for a while, scratch your head, ask someone for professional help and then come back in a few days....
I think my fellow developers and publishers have answered it all already, in a very reasonable way. There can be no discussion on whether or not the PB are involved in purposefully criminal acts, making money of software they do not own and have no licenses for. And personally I don't care for legal technicalities, nor for smart lawyers. PB is braking the law, making money off other people's backs without reimbursing them and hence should pay up.
The other thing that amazes me is the apparent lack of insight in the enormous amount of work that goes into developing add-ons, and the relatively low pay-back for these efforts and, yes, investments. Most developers are one-man bands, sometimes with a regular income on the side, but often not! Either way, they spend enormous amounts of time to bring you these products and I am pretty certain that the critics would balk at the resulting hourly wages, if they'd be offered tolive from those.
Now, my personal method of battling piracy is indeed to deliver not only stellar products, but also stellar support, an open ear for any customer and a constant present in various customer communities.
That's the only way to continue selling.
That does however NOT mean that it then is 'okay' for the likes of PB to copy whatever we make and publish and I sure as hell don't have to agree with them...... or with any 'customer' who thinks I should !
And to the guy quoted above: you don't seem to understand that people WILL stop developing out of sheer frustration with remarks and actions like that, hence my remark that piracy IS hurting YOUR hobby (and mine).
Sure, the only way to stop piracy of FS add-ons is to make sure none get developed anymore...... I suppose then THAT is what you want? Making you the customer we don't need :faint:
Have a good one.
Thank you, Francois! I'm sitting here at the moment shaking my head in dismay, while gazing through glassy eyes at my pitiful $553 commision check from last month. Let's see, even if I figured that at only 40hrs/week, that comes to about $3/hr. :faint:
I'm physically disabled just enough to not be employable, but not quite enough to qualify for Social Security Disability. I have two more years before I can apply for SS "retirement benefits" (assuming there's anything left in the government's accounts by then)...
Well said. Someone who hasn't been on a beta team or who hasn't seen what goes into it can't know what goes on. I think it would be neat if a developer made a development public. Kind of show progress shots from the very beginning.
Just a thought...
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
Someone just the other day talked to me about making an anti-piracy video/documentary. I am seriously considering taking up that challenge if only to persuade a few minds.
I would definitely encourage that, good gesture
Mickey D
SOH-CM-2024
Frank knows my views well and I mostly agree with him. The a***holes who steal our work wouldn't part with the smell of their own s**t let alone pay for software. It's probably not wholly true that we lose nothing to such as TPB. If peer to peer sharing was not an option then more would have to buy if only to send copies to their mates.
Tigisfat! We devs can't just sit back and allow these people to steal our work and I for one will work hard to get each download stopped if it's only to p*ss off uploaders. Free thinking and personal freedom does not equate to theft in any civilised society and to do nothing is to condone it.
Bjoern
worst developer ever
