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Thunderbirds radomes appearing at shows without paint

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Dang Tigisfat...
With folks like you, we can cut through a lot of our fluff & manhour losses by eliminating mishap boards & investigations.

I think you should submit it to the IDEA program :)

Frankly, I'm confused as to why someone with your experience would make a condemining decision without examining any mishap board data...

 
Absolutely. No pilot has any business in a thunderstorm, no matter the skill or aircraft. As a flight instructor, I can tell you that every syllabus used includes the FAA's mandatory lessons about avoidance. Most instructors teach that thunderstorms should be avoided by 20NM.

To make the decision to fly through a thunderstorm because you think you'll make it or it won't be that bad is HORRIBLE decision making and poor airmanship.

To inadvertantly end up in a thunderstorm for any reason means the same.

The only way that radome damage like this occurs (and I'm speaking from experience) is from flying through areas painted with heavy rain or hail. The rain inside a cell is such that even at landing speeds it will wreck radar absorbent structures.

There's no way around the fact that this is a display of poor airmanship.
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is there any way around the fact that just maybe the Thunderbirds were not airborne during the hailstorm...in fact just exactly where did you read they were flying during this incident?

April 6, 2009 (by Capt. Jason McCree) - After inclement weather damaged five Thunderbird aircraft upon their arrival to Keesler Air Force Base, Miss., for the base's air show -- a display of teamwork happened behind the scenes.
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http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/apr/04/thunderbirds-highlight-air-show/

The aerial team arrived Thursday in their F16 Fighting Falcon jets from their home base at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, just ahead of hail and other severe weather.
"We were expecting it," said Thunderbird No. 4 Sean Gustafson, the first Reservist to fly with the Thunderbirds. The planes took off from Las Vegas and refueled in midair and made it to Biloxi just ahead of the large hail storm. The weather is expected to be better for the air show.
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If they weren't flying, then why do the articles explain that damage was almost exclusively to the radomes? If hail fell on top of the parked aircraft, then I'd assume there would be more damage. I've also come to know that the T-birds request hangar space. YOu could be right though. I'm used to aircraft where many structures are as weak as the radomes. Maybe the radomes on F-16s are just weak and they did recieve hail from above while on the ground.
 
Panther_99FS said:
Dang Tigisfat...
With folks like you, we can cut through a lot of our fluff & manhour losses by eliminating mishap boards & investigations.

I think you should submit it to the IDEA program :)

Frankly, I'm confused as to why someone with your experience would make a condemining decision without examining any mishap board data...
Click to expand...

No, that's fine. I can completely understand why this is hard to explain to someone who's not in aviation. I'd still like N2056 to swing by; I'd like to know what he thinks.
 
If they flew through it, I might expect to see more damage to other parts of the plane, like leading edges. Radomes might only receive "glancing blows" from ice cubes while in flight and may get less damage. Just a thought. Radomes are covered with "rubbery stuff" which may have been ripped by the hail, requiring thier replacement. Maybe the hail stones weren't big enough to cause dents in the metal bits. Maybe they had to replace a couple canopys too. Maybe the news reporter didn't exactly get all the facts correct to begin with (shocker!!)
 
Maybe the news reporter didn't exactly get all the facts correct to begin with (shocker!!)
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hmm i think the article said 5 aircraft were damaged...but i only see 2 gray radomes..

090406-F-6737G-051.JPG
 
tigisfat said:
No, that's fine. I can completely understand why this is hard to explain to someone who's not in aviation.
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It has absolutely nothing to do with "not being in aviation". As a comm expert, I don't even make conclusions on comm events until after I see all the data.

The reason for mishap boards & investigations to exist are exactly for occasions like these & then some. They exist to gather all the facts & then make a conclusion.

A good investigator won't come to a determination/conclusion until after all the facts have been gathered - then if it's poor airmanship, so be it. But again, the determination won't be made until AFTER all the evidence is gathered & analyzed.
 
Noone's jumping to conclusions, if they did in fact fly through a t-storm, then it was poor airmanship. You keep mentioning a mishap board; I'd be shocked if there was one.
 
tigisfat said:
You keep mentioning a mishap board; I'd be shocked if there was one.
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Without knowing the cost of the noses, one of the following *should* be in order:

1) Class B Mishap: Total mishap cost is $200,000 or more and less than $1,000,000.

2) Class C Mishap: Cost of reported damage is between $20,000 and $200,000


<NOBR></NOBR>
 
Panther_99FS said:
Without knowing the cost of the noses, one of the following *should* be in order:

1) Class B Mishap: Total mishap cost is $200,000 or more and less than $1,000,000.

2) Class C Mishap: Cost of reported damage is between $20,000 and $200,000


<NOBR></NOBR>
Click to expand...




It doesn't work like that. If we did a Class A mishap style investigation every time a part that costs more than a million dollars was replaced due to damage, the figures would be pretty ugly. That happens on a daily basis at our base alone; jillion dollar parts are constantly being replaced due to damage. That's not to say that pilots or maintainers are neglectful, but these parts are all in the 100's of thousands and millions, and they don't last forever; and we must remember the current usage. Usually someone has to be pissed off at someone else's behavior for there to be declared a mishap.
 
Reddriver6, I only saw two in the video I linked to as well. They make it sound like there are more.
 
tigisfat said:
... Usually someone has to be pissed off at someone else for there to be declared mishap.
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Right ...

tigisfat said:
... If we did a Class A mishap style investigation every time a part that costs more than a million dollars was replaced due to damage, the figures would be pretty ugly. That happens on a daily basis at our base alone...
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Time to cancel the B-1 program!

:icon_eek: :icon_lol:
 
PRB said:
Right ...



Time to cancel the B-1 program!

:icon_eek: :icon_lol:
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Nah, the B-1B is the world's most versatile and deadly bomber. No other weapons system can do what it does. It does have an aweful lot of million dollar parts that don't last forever though.
 
tigisfat said:
It doesn't work like that. If we did a Class A mishap style investigation every time a part that costs more than a million dollars was replaced due to damage, the figures would be pretty ugly. That happens on a daily basis at our base alone; jillion dollar parts are constantly being replaced due to damage. That's not to say that pilots or maintainers are neglectful, but these parts are all in the 100's of thousands and millions, and they don't last forever; and we must remember the current usage. Usually someone has to be pissed off at someone else's behavior for there to be declared a mishap.
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Okay you win....I give up on this... :)
 
Panther_99FS said:
Okay you win....I give up on this... :)
Click to expand...


We've had a few disagreements here:

I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong and you're right, and I'm sure that you know more than I do about certain things. It doesn't seem as if you're willing to so the same. It's almost by principal that you refuse to acknowledge that there are things I may know more about than you. I love a good debate, but the 'whatever' response (as given above) almost seems like quitting a losing game to avoid an actual loss. I do have no doubt, however, that you'd move in for the kill when a win is assured. Regardless, I do hope these discussions/debates are all in good fun and humor to you; they are to me. You learn something you wish you would have known before every time you're proven wrong, right?
 
tigisfat said:
It's almost by principal that you refuse to acknowledge that there are things I may know more about than you. I love a good debate, but the 'whatever' response (as given above) almost seems like quitting a losing game to avoid an actual loss.
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You're absolutely correct....

I'm wrong on all accounts...
 
tigisfat said:
I'd like to know what he thinks.
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Well, I'll tell ya what I think...
This thread is starting to get kinda ugly.

So two T-bird F-16s are flying with replacement radomes due to damage from inclement weather. Without more info everyone here is just guessing and starting to get kinda grouchy in close quarters. Time to get some space and talk about something else for a while.

Sorry guys, this one is closed.
 
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