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  • Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.

    Post 16 Update

    Post 17 Warning

Angle Deck Essex

Bjoern said:
Didn't F-4s only appear on Forrestals (and larger), because they were too big and heavy for the older carriers?
Click to expand...

They were on the MidWay class "Bat barges" as well. I know this as I served 24 years (viet-vet) member of the Tonkin gulf Yacht club.
I was on the Uss Ranger, Uss Hancock, Uss Bon Homme Richard, And
The Forrestal (Uss Zippo). The Class 27C carrier only had 2 Catapults.
The Corral Sea was a 3 catapult bat barge. Funny thing.. the A-3 (Whale)
was much bigger plane yet we could launch and recover the A-3 from the
Uss Hancock CV-19. The tail folded, the wings folded, so it could go into the hange bay. :USA-flag:
 
Motormouse said:
Hello from my temporary 'ome in the colonies....
the 'Ark' wasn't exactly huge either, and 63,000lb of Buccaneer
worked off that one.....there's a piccie about somewhere of the last
cruise with 'Ark' parked alongside Nimitz...yoo hoo, Skippy Bing..
can you oblige, I'm not able to find it (the piccie) right now..

Great stuff though....makes one appreciate the skills of those 'who can'
with 3ds/max I must say.


ttfn

Pete
Click to expand...

Pete, re Buccaneer, this is correct, and in a somewhat more than neccesary explanatory dialogue I'll expand :). It is more than just the aircraft weight alone, its the speed and sink rate, the Phantom isnt much larger than the Buccaneer and certainly smaller than the Whale but its higher approach speed and sink rate precludes it from Essex carrier operations, yet possible from the 'Ark', probably because of our initial preference for steel decks from WWII as opposed to the American preference for wood.

The highest weight impact (from my notes) aircraft for the respective classes are below,

Essex, A-3 Skywarrior
Midway, F-4 Phantom
Forrestal onwards, RA-5 Vigilante.

The Vigilante was only suppased when the F-14 arrived and still (F-14
) holds the record for the highest impact threshold of all USN carrier aircraft that I'm aware of.

The more modern FA-18 is much kinder to the deck and was deployed to all carriers then in service, which goes back the the Midway class and I think some may have practiced on the Essex class trainer USS Lexington, but I dont have photographic proof to hand, just a recollection of images somewhere.

On a personal note, I'm kinda ticked off that some personal favourite aircraft are precluded from the Essex carriers, but thats history and it is our legacy to ensure its written and told correctly for the future, so y'all Rhino drivers are going to have to find something bigger to beat up with your cats and traps :).

Best

Michael
 
tipton123 said:
They were on the MidWay class "Bat barges" as well. I know this as I served 24 years (viet-vet) member of the Tonkin gulf Yacht club.
I was on the Uss Ranger, Uss Hancock, Uss Bon Homme Richard, And
The Forrestal (Uss Zippo). The Class 27C carrier only had 2 Catapults.
The Corral Sea was a 3 catapult bat barge. Funny thing.. the A-3 (Whale)
was much bigger plane yet we could launch and recover the A-3 from the
Uss Hancock CV-19. The tail folded, the wings folded, so it could go into the hange bay. :USA-flag:
Click to expand...

Long time since I've heard Forrestal called the USS Zippo, I'm sure one of the Essex's had a similar conflagration in the Gulf of Tonkin too, will have to look that up.

Anyway, eyes down and back the the grind stone :).

Best

Michael
 
I think there is an A-4 in development? A-4G perhaps? Anyone?
Anyway, it is a small simple aircraft.

A history in that era of jets on carriers plus props.
 
No Golfs on Essex Tonkin deployments from my records, Bravos and Charlies and just one very rare deployment with A-7Bs.

I have one deployment in mind for statics its one of the more interesting spreads I could find.

Sluff
Scooter
Whale
Six shooter
Stoof
Seasprite
Seaking

The other rare one is the single deployment of Demons which gives

Demons
Six shooter
Spad
Scooter
Whale
Stoof
Seasprite

The rest of the deployments fall into the general run of the mill mixes.

Best

Michael


wilycoyote4 said:
I think there is an A-4 in development? A-4G perhaps? Anyone?
Anyway, it is a small simple aircraft.

A history in that era of jets on carriers plus props.
Click to expand...
 
Scooter----The early A-4 Skyhawk, I think. The A-4G is much later, I think, and bigger. So many nicknames, so little time, lol.
 
I'll love flying my Sader on and off this baby when it is ready! Prowler, I will be waiting to buy those for sure! I bought your Vol 2 way back and I think it was one of my first couple of paywares. Still fly em 9r! :icon29:
 
To clear up a possible misunderstanding, all of the Essex Carriers serving in the 60's had by then the wood decking replaced with steel. I am always amazed that even with bulging, the Essex carriers remained upright with all the added topweight!
 
Tom,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>

I don’t think all of the deck was replaced with steel ?, I've certainly got pictures of modified Essex's with wooden decks and Crusaders etc.<o:p></o:p>

Ticonderoga certainly had wooden decks or part wooden decks through to the mid 60's after her last SCB conversion, latest I can find wooden decks on the Tico is 1964, mostly around the bridge and bow area, a picture from 1969 shows it has been steel plated but there were no major yard fits in that period that I'm aware of, SCB and FRAM were completed long before.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Lexington was also part wood in 61 but all steel by 1970.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The wooden deck was not always removed before the steel was added, in many cases it was simply laid on top, especially the thinner areas.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Checking my notes, there appears to be a large area behind the bridge next to the #3 elevator that was never steel covered, specifications are 3/32" polyurethane clad hickory wood with a layer of anti slip paint on top, possibly giving an illusion of uniformity with the rest of the deck, but wood underneath none the less. This area was replanked on Lexington as late as 1976 and was again found rotten later when preserved, whether other carriers retained this covered planked area I've yet to ascertain but it seems likely as the drawing is generic and not vessel specific.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Still, for simplicity we'll say the decks looked all steel from 1970 onwards LOL. Visually that is correct, the only give away was the lack of sunken tie down points, actually that might be the easiest way to check, steel decks had the modern circular sunken tie down points, wooden would have had the original slotted steel strips.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
ahh the joys of minutiae LOL

Best

Michael

fliger747 said:
To clear up a possible misunderstanding, all of the Essex Carriers serving in the 60's had by then the wood decking replaced with steel. I am always amazed that even with bulging, the Essex carriers remained upright with all the added topweight!
Click to expand...
 
I spent some time on Bonni'e Dick and Oriskany in the late 60's and do not recall any wood remaining. The Evil Eye, in NY certainly has no wood either. I have a friend who was a Crusaider driver and will have to see if I can get ahold of him. Willy was on the Lex, so might have some input there. One class becomes at least "eight" in time....

Cheers: T.
 
Using the "Wayback Machine" I recall a visit to a Navy Shipyard in the San Francisco Bay Area where a wooden deck carrier was being refitted, if that's the term, and I seem to think it was the Boxer --???? This was about 1955. I was about 10 years old. I walked on the wooden flight deck which I remember best. The wood wasn't toothpicks but hefty slabs of thick wood with round bolt heads if I recall rightly. The deck was empty. Everywhere else below were construction equipment and materials.
 
:), funny you should mention Bonnie Dick, just got home from work and found this (attached), its from the bow area, some Essex carriers had the area between the cats left planked for quite some time, you can see the planks in the image, there is no date for the photo, however thats an A-4E from VA-94, the tail code is NF which is CVW-5 who deployed to Bonnie Dick in the Gulf of Tonkin between 27th Jan and 10th Oct 1968.

The A-4E modex is 4xx and VA-94 were assigned the air wing 4th Sqn or second attack Sqn which tallies with the 4xx modex.

VA-94 deployed again on Bonnie Dick from 18th Mar to 29th Oct 1969 and again from 2nd April to 20th Oct 1970, again as the 4th Sqn and 4xx modex and again as CVW-5 tail code NF.

VA-94 did not deploy again until 1971, this time aboard USS Coral Sea and after they had changed to A-7Es.

Previous to the above, VA-94 deployed to Hancock in 1967, again 4th Sqn and tail code NF but with A-4Cs, all prior deployments were A-4Cs.

The data is collected from the Governmental released deployment documents for carriers in Vietnam. Unless the data is incorrect we have three years to choose from for the first image, 1968-70.

The second three images are from Bonnie Dick and Oriskany in the Vietnam war.

The F-8 of VF-111 sundowners is aboard USS Oriskany and is from the CVW-16 deployment of 16th Jun 67 to 31st Jan 68

The deck view is from Bonnie Dick and is labeled as crew from EA-1F VAW-13 DET 1 return from a mission, that places the photo as CVW-19 deployment to Bonnie Dick from 21st Apr 65 to 13th Jan 66, a little earlier than the previous images.

The final image shows a RF-8A landing aboard Bonnie Dick and is from the same deployment as the EA-1F crew image, the shows the large wooden area abeam and behind the bridge structure, right out to the hardened 25lb panels under the RF-8A.

I don't want to ruffle feathers with those who have stood on these hallowed decks or get into I'm more right than you contest, I want the model historically correct for the deployment I envisage and matches the statics, this includes aircraft deployed, Modex, serials, Sqns, vessel antenna, weapons and other sundries that may have changed over time, including decks and their surfaces.

But, I can only go with the written and pictorial data collected over the years, I'm sure they were all steel in time, and yes I'm fully aware that modern historical museum pieces rarely represent their history accurately, my summation is based on reference material from my chosen period of interest, 1965-1975. Wooden remains to the deck are present on many Essex carriers through to about 1964-65, after that they gradually became more covered in steel, when and where the last one was I haven't yet deduced, 67 or 68 is as late as I can pictorially prove right now, maybe as late as 1970 on Bonnie Dick ?.

Large copies of all the images can be found here
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images%20Ships/023105.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images Ships/Image1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images Ships/Image2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images Ships/Image3.jpg

Hope that helps....grabs nomex suit and crawls back into hole.

Best

Michael



fliger747 said:
I spent some time on Bonni'e Dick and Oriskany in the late 60's and do not recall any wood remaining. The Evil Eye, in NY certainly has no wood either. I have a friend who was a Crusaider driver and will have to see if I can get ahold of him. Willy was on the Lex, so might have some input there. One class becomes at least "eight" in time....

Cheers: T.
Click to expand...
 
One final set of images, the first two are dated as 1976 and show the wood replacement process being carried out on USS Lexington.

The first view shows the polyuthene covered part of the deck, the landing zone is to the right, the view looks aft, you can just see the 25lb slabs at right of image, the wood extended into the landing area but not where the main impact occured.

The second image shows the process of laying the new planks, the view looks starboard from the landing area, bridge to left, stern to right.

The third image is from the US department of defense photo collection and dated 10/24/1985 from USS Lexington and shows she retained the wooden deck between the cats until at least this date.

Big pictures here
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images%20Ships/Image4.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images Ships/Image5.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images Ships/DN-ST-86-00545.JPEG

Best

Michael
 
I have a piece of wood from the flight deck of the Lexington when she was decommissioned.

When I made my visits to her in 1969 she had her wooden deck. I have lost most of my pictures I took after many moves.

VCN-1
 
The Lad's are ready.

2-4.jpg
 
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