A short editorial about flight sim developers (thoughts and contribution please)

[tigisfat]

A short editorial about flight sim developers (thoughts and contribution please)

Hey guys, I just wanted to say a few things about the state of private-party MSFS development given recent developments. Feel free to reply with your own thoughts and differences, but we can talk about this without insulting anyone.


There are many different kinds of MSFS developers, even though their products appear to compete with each other. Many devs have different goals as well. We have large (respectively) companies with hundreds of employees with full time dedicated teams, we have medium sized consortiums of part-time employees with the occasional full-time position, we have small businesses of nothing but part-timers and we of course have freeware makers. I've learned in time that some have hundreds of thousands of dollars in play while some may make only a few thousand dollars out of a product with a thousand hours of development time. We can't compare the huge businesses with the tiny ones, or expect the tiny ones to have the same resources.

Some developers believe in nothing but good will, and they maintain great relationships with their customers. We've also seen the downsides. There are developers out to tell us anything we want to hear even if it's a stretch of the truth. Some developers are notorious for horrible customer support. While I believe that a company should always be publically discussed, I also believe that we institute our own statutes and limitations on what we say. These teams and companies are constantly evolving as their personal lives and part time interests change. Employees come and go. A company shouldn't be scolded for a period of inactivity or even a seemingly poor release of two years ago because things really do change that fast. On the same token, we can't hammer a developer's website for blandness when they've had a period of mainstream inactivity. Maybe they have a great product coming for us, and just maybe they didn't care about profits and providing us with front page eye candy. Part-timers are allowed periods where they don't dance for the public, right?

There are quite a few smaller companies out there. A recent trend has been outsourcing work. This obviously allows a developer to speed products to the market. Should we be against it? I don't think so. Many didn't appreciate the flood of Alphasim products last year, but they did further our hobby and bring things to fruition that we love. Many don't care for Alphasim's leader, but that doesn't mean the whole team must suffer. That brings me to another point.

Should we hold interpersonal problems against an entire development team? NO. Does anyone disagree? I know of multiple companies that have employees who've never met each other face to face. Again, why make them all suffer?

When's a negative product comment fair? I do believe there's a time and place, and the place is here. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. The time is when you've purchased a newer product you don't like and want others to have a fair review, when you see glaring problems (and provide evidence), when asked for opinions by other forum goers (even if a product is old, but try to keep things in perspective) and the final reason is if you've been burned. If you must talk about horrible service, give the dev an honest chance to make it right. People work all over the world and in different time zones. Just because your download button or activation doesn't work doesn't mean it's their fault. A lot of devs purchase ebusiness utilities, and many have problems. If you go screaming online about it, they very well could've had a quick fix for you on YOUR COMPUTER the second they woke up and got to theirs. How would you feel if you purchased expensive business management/download software and it constantly let you down?

What about marketing techniques? Just because a product is marketed as 'budget' or 'recession' priced, doesn't mean that it's a d-list product. It also doesn't mean that it can't compete with products priced well out of it's range. Maybe we should take these things as blessings. I like products that are priced low, don't you? There are surely frustrated people out there right now feeling like they can't do anything right.

We owe it to ourselves and this hobby to accurately bring up negative reviews and concerns, but we must have perspective. I've negatively reviewed products here before, and been flamed. Sometimes I regret the choice of words I've used in the past, but I don't regret a bad review because I'd like to think I considered things fairly. My most infamous review was of the IRIS F-14, and I still stand by that review. However, I am open to IRIS products in the future, I consider Warchild an online friend and I respect Smudge. The Vulcan appeared to be a solid release that we all needed.

 

[deathfromafar]

Well said Tigisfat.

In dozens of private discussions both here, other sites and even in person or by phone, many well covered issues were raked and combed along in finite detail regarding issues and/or shortcomings related to payware products. Many folks mean nothing personal when they describe their dislikes of something in particular whether it is with a given product, company policies, or the personal trepidations of a given personality. The medium of the internet doesn't always capture the true to life feelings of what a person may try to convey to individuals or the masses (even discounting language barriers or use of auto translators). Often many who might possibly be misinterpreted are only trying to voice concern based on past or current negative experiences they have been through with a particular developer or vendor. Not every complaint is a case of sour grapes nor by the same token are all gripes legit. The general hope is that legit concerns are brought to light and hopefully a good course of action will help to better the experience for both parties and iron out wrinkles here and there.

I would simply add that before too many folks blow a cork over certain things, take a step back and breath deeply before typing a response. Chances are less flustering and happier outcomes will be the result.


Happy Flying Everyone!

 

[Smudge]

I have to second this posting. Tigisfat brings up some fair and well thought out points.

I myself have my own fair share of commercial products, including but not limited to PMDG stuff, Captain Sim's 757 and a bunch of Aerosoft products.. Sure there are some things I've got which have been a waste of money in my opinion, but then that's not so say that others are very happy with the very same purchases..

Me? I like tubeliners! lol...now there's something I bet you never thought you'd hear!

 

[CBris]

In the real world I am in aerospace quality assurance where I am responsible for the standards employed by our suppliers. The aerospace world is very clearly regulated about what is good quality and how we go about achieving the best possible standards. Even so, with all the outsourcing that goes on, we still get quality escapes and "recal actions".

The thing is, our suppliers listen to us when we visit. a. the have to by law and b. they want to out of common sense. Of course we get moans about what we demand (for our customers are very demanding) and there is resistance as well sometimes.

But at least we talk and can talk, even when the language gets "hotter".

The sim industry is nowhere near as big, but it is still business, and the people producing the products that we want to buy are supposed to be in business.

Not listening is one of the biggest problems around. All too often I see a total unwillingness to respond to the market by developers. One of the more negative results is that "We, the people..." end up frustrated and join in the "slanging matches" which don't take that long to start at all.

The aerospace simulation market really needs a commercial watchdog and a set of industry standards so that a common view of what defines quality can be reached and how such quality can be maintained. In the real world we have Aerospace Standards such as AS9100 and watchdogs such as the International Aerospace Quality Group. Above that we have the EASA and FAA and all the other national bodies setting down laws for our business.

In the sim world we are somewhere around the early nineteen hundreds still. Anyone can build a plane and say it is certified to the Wright Brothers' standards of flight.

We need standards and independant watchdogs in the sim world too.

Cost? Yes. But remember:

"The cost of quality is less than the amount you would have saved if you had got your product right the first time"

 

[tigisfat]

Chris, I respectfully disagree. One of the main points of my editorial is about not comparing all flight sim developers against each other. This market is one untainted by oversight, and is so beautifully untouched that it is capitalism in it's truest form. To encourage constant startups and new ideas, it must remain that way. The minute we compare and regulate all the many different kinds of development is the same minute that we start discouraging progress.

We have several grassroots efforts out there to alert potential consumers of poor quality, and they are serving us well. As for consumers that aren't active in this community, they will simply be less likely to purchase from an offending developer again. Again, such is capitalism, and it's beautiful.

 

[CBris]

That is valid and true of course. I even agree with it. I just don't like or approve of some of the tat we are expected to pay for when folk like Piglet, Milton and co. can do better for less.

I would still like to see a watchdog - not a rule maker, a watchdog. But of course in the long run it would indeed be a case of:

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Oh - the market may be untainted by oversight, but it is still very much tainted by developers not seeing the lack of quality. That is no negation of what they do, but extra eyes see more and trained extra eyes see even more still. But yes, regulation can cause indigestion. There are two sides and more in this kind of debate and we need to see them too.

 

[Lionheart]

We have several grassroots efforts out there to alert potential consumers of poor quality, and they are serving us well. As for consumers that aren't active in this community, they will simply be less likely to purchase from an offending developer again. Again, such is capitalism, and it's beautiful.

Well, if you're just out to destroy new development groups, then thats the way to go.

If you want to make unprofessional and rude remarks instead of something like 'the VC is a bit simple', then that is how you will be viewed.

This is a rough business. When I first started, my planes were really rough.. Very rough. But some poeple sent some good comments and some advice my way and it fueled me to keep going. I am sorry for alot of these people that have nut cases that go off on them and run them in the ground. This is a very difficult field, making these elaborate models. I still find mysteries in air files and I have been doing this for way over 10 years.. Hitting down on someone to bury them when they have been doing it for a year is pure evil. But hey, you back that up. You say so you can 'shut down' those groups.

Your wake will be a destruction in this hobby, not growing it and making it better..



Bill

 

[Lionheart]

And no... I am in no way saying to 'hide' negative aspects of a model. I am saying, 'do it professionally'. Do it in a civilized manner. Dont shoot them dead because you dont like their model. Be nice..

Voice your views in a way that wont sink ships but cause them to make their planes massively better.. Help them get better.

Strife destroys..



Bill

 

[tigisfat]

Well, if you're just out to destroy new development groups, then thats the way to go.

I only brought up these groups to compare them to formal regulation and oversight. In the face of actual oversight, small review sites like VFRreviews.com will always be more healthy for the industry. I wasn't saying that people should get together and smash developers. Please don't misunderstand me.

We've been through this polite versus rude thing many times before; probably about once a month. That's not what my editorial was about. It was about when criticism's even fair in light of recent events.

Your wake will be a destruction in this hobby, not growing it and making it better..

huh?

 

[gera]

In the real world I am in aerospace quality assurance where I am responsible for the standards employed by our suppliers. The aerospace world is very clearly regulated about what is good quality and how we go about achieving the best possible standards. Even so, with all the outsourcing that goes on, we still get quality escapes and "recal actions".

The thing is, our suppliers listen to us when we visit. a. the have to by law and b. they want to out of common sense. Of course we get moans about what we demand (for our customers are very demanding) and there is resistance as well sometimes.

But at least we talk and can talk, even when the language gets "hotter".

The sim industry is nowhere near as big, but it is still business, and the people producing the products that we want to buy are supposed to be in business.

Not listening is one of the biggest problems around. All too often I see a total unwillingness to respond to the market by developers. One of the more negative results is that "We, the people..." end up frustrated and join in the "slanging matches" which don't take that long to start at all.

The aerospace simulation market really needs a commercial watchdog and a set of industry standards so that a common view of what defines quality can be reached and how such quality can be maintained. In the real world we have Aerospace Standards such as AS9100 and watchdogs such as the International Aerospace Quality Group. Above that we have the EASA and FAA and all the other national bodies setting down laws for our business.

In the sim world we are somewhere around the early nineteen hundreds still. Anyone can build a plane and say it is certified to the Wright Brothers' standards of flight.

We need standards and independant watchdogs in the sim world too.

Cost? Yes. But remember:

"The cost of quality is less than the amount you would have saved if you had got your product right the first time"

To ask for a "watchdog" in the tiny world of Flight sims is a perfect way of killing the "industry".......Amigo I totally disagree with you!!!!!!! specially since most addons are freeware....C´man, this is for the birds!!!!.........

 

[gera]

And no... I am in no way saying to 'hide' negative aspects of a model. I am saying, 'do it professionally'. Do it in a civilized manner. Dont shoot them dead because you dont like their model. Be nice..

Voice your views in a way that wont sink ships but cause them to make their planes massively better.. Help them get better.

Strife destroys..



Bill

Bill you are so right, and as a developer you really know what you are talking about. There is a way of saying what you want to say without "torpedoing your Tender ship"......:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy:

 

[dswo]

1. Chris, I think that the regulatory body you describe already exists: it's this forum.

2. What was different about the weekend: instead of criticizing products, articulately or inarticulately, a couple of members criticized people. I don't object to that theoretically. What a subcontractor said about non-payment from a contractor makes me uneasy. If it's true (and we only heard one side of the story) then public shame is appropriate, just as public praise was appropriate for the contractor's other products. Also, reputations are useful. Yes, a bad company can improve, and a good company can coast. But reputations catch up.

3. That being said, articulate criticism of products is essential. Criticism of people and companies is useful, but messier and less necessary; I could see the practical case for prohibiting it.

 

[Francois]

Don't exactly understand what this is all about..... I guess I missed something along the way... but watchdogs and quality seals are total overkill in my humble opinion.

When I left the corporate world I also left behind, forcefully, some of the fads and hypes that belong there.... things like '360 degree evaluation', 'town meetings', 'think global, act local', 'downsizing', 'outsourcing', 'global standardization', 'war on suppliers' and another few I don't even care to remember. All there mainly to wow management and stock holders and not really adding anything to the bottom line.

Flight Simulation is a hobby, and apart from that mainly a Mom and Pop Business for those few of us that have enough money and spare time to be able to afford to work on it..... there also is quite a lot of competition these days, not in the least since every person on the globe with only superficial PC skills, some rudimentary 3D program and Photoshop, is now making 'payware' add-ons for our simulators.

That in itself might warrant some sort of 'quality seal', but lets be serious: that's hardly realistic. There's no consensus ANYWHERE as to what represents 'quality' and what doesn't, in most forums both users and devs are not in agreement with each other, and on top of it all most devs/publishers are usually hanging on their finger nails off the roof's edge at the 10th floor and can't even afford the time to battle pirates, let alone try and stick to some standard of quality 'someone' might try to impose on them.

Lets face it folks, this has worked for the better part of 25 years the way it has.... a self-regulating market, and I bet ya it will do so for the next 25 as well.

I also think that as soon as this whole business will start to look too much like 'work', most professional devs will drop it faster than you can wink an eye. Almost all of us are in here to make a buck BUT to have fun doing what we love doing at the same time.....

If we make a crap product, word will get out and soon enough we won't sell any copies of it anymore.... unless we bang them in a box and sell them at the Wal-Marts where none-hobbyists buy anything with a nice catchy picture on it.....

 

[N400QW]

Couldn't agree more Francois. Overexposure to "corporate mindset/jargon" and "regulatory responsibility flim/flam" should be labeled "Hazardous to one's mental well being":isadizzy:

Users have common sense to guide them thru the maze of life and there is no need for yet another "panel of experts" to keep them "safe" from FS Developers.

As in any other retail business, customers speak by their purchase decisions and that is as it should be.

 

[gajit]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????

 

[CrisGer]

Kindness and courtesy are the keys to any sharing. Essential in fact. They as principles make working thru any difficulties and disagreements not only possible but a positive exchange instead of a rock throwing match that no one wins. In my humble and very simple opinion keeping these principles will aleviate and prevent and heal incidents that may occur or have occured. And keeping things open and free will allow people to share as they can...and for quality to be its own best spokesman.

 

[CodyValkyrie]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????

In today's industry, where sales are in the hundreds and not thousands like it used to be, it is absolutely and utterly true! People are being smarter with their money and don't want to waste it. Hence the, in many cases, thousands of views on topics with only a handful of comments. Bad early commentary can KILL an addon. Sometimes, if developers are lucky and have enough time, they can market well enough to overcome this to some degree. Let's face it though, many developers have names for themselves that have stuck well beyond the original reasoning that they earned those names.....

 

[gajit]

In today's industry, where sales are in the hundreds and not thousands like it used to be, it is absolutely and utterly true! People are being smarter with their money and don't want to waste it. Hence the, in many cases, thousands of views on topics with only a handful of comments. Bad early commentary can KILL an addon. Sometimes, if developers are lucky and have enough time, they can market well enough to overcome this to some degree. Let's face it though, many developers have names for themselves that have stuck well beyond the original reasoning that they earned those names.....

Even so - SOH must remain independent of Devs - even the 12 or so I really admire and will buy from without even looking at all the copy and limited screenshots on their own websites. This is a vital forum for anyone to visit who wants to read first hand "experiences" about a product.

That said - this forum causes me to buy more than discard!! My credit card statement each month proves that :ernae:

 

[Henry]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????

I do not believe that it is this site in particular
But we have all kinds of people here
Developers, customers, Trouble makers
This is a hobby for all in general
and we are all passionate about it
even being Admin here is a hobby
thats a big melting pot
and we all are experts in our own minds and there
are true experts out there also
i have always said if we were in a bar together
there would be a big brawl.
I do believe this site is different than most
because we are that melting pot
this is the outhouse
in my opinion we should not be the tech support
and grievance board for any one
most of those issues should be brought up
to the individual developer
i said most, sometimes, people get frustrated when
they cannot, then i believe its fair to ask a question here.
Regulator body?
who the hill wants that job, everyone is biased to a certain point, bad enough just to keep peace.
as far as bad products i have purchased a few
do you know what ones, no i do not complain
in public i just learn, what i may consider a bad purchase
others may love or vice versa
crazy world aint it
H

 

[CodyValkyrie]

Gajit, don't mistake my remarks as a case to bend to the will of developers. I'm only stating that yes, comments DO make a difference in sales.