All's quiet on the Alphasim front?

[DennyA]

To be honest, we're seriously considering doing this same thing with our F-15C and E. How many people would buy those? 15 bucks, two planes, 4 liveries, basic animations (externals and VCs) no real system(s) code, no sound and a basic FDE but they do have awesome VCs with some working gauges and stuff and nearly beautiful externals (still working on the materials)... (and a paint kit). And we are working on them on a daily basis...

I'd be fine with this, except I'd want a good FDE. The flying's the most entertaining part to me, and it needs to feel like the real thing. If the HUD and MFDs came from the Hornet to make it $15 instead of $60, it wouldn't really bug me. I'm more about the flying experience than systems management.)

(And yep, I do have 1.5 hours in an F-15D, so I do know what it flies like. )

 

[michael davies]

Its interesting to see another developer considering the middle market, as noted in the Halifax thread, not everyone appears to want Capt Sim or Accusim depth, though reading the forums that is the overall impression one gets.

It should be possible with baisc FDEs to still mimic how an aircraft feels, certainly good enough for the middle market type of guys, what you wont get is a 1% FDE, it'd be more like 10%, but if people are willing to accept say F-18 HUD in a F-15 or other small compromises then surely the same should apply to the FDE. If the whole product is to the same standard then it should fair well, what usually happens is one part of the product is very good and the rest normal, which often leads to conusmers claiming its unfinished.

It has to all be very good, all average or all poor, as soon as you mix those qualities then the product feels disjointed and usually attracts criticism of one kind or another.

There are several developers who actively target this middle market and on the whole do very well, but they do also attract their fair share of criticism, some justified, some not, the balance being individually subjective.

 

[Henry]

Its interesting to see another developer considering the middle market, as noted in the Halifax thread, not everyone appears to want Capt Sim or Accusim depth, though reading the forums that is the overall impression one gets.

It should be possible with baisc FDEs to still mimic how an aircraft feels, certainly good enough for the middle market type of guys, what you wont get is a 1% FDE, it'd be more like 10%, but if people are willing to accept say F-18 HUD in a F-15 or other small compromises then surely the same should apply to the FDE. If the whole product is to the same standard then it should fair well, what usually happens is one part of the product is very good and the rest normal, which often leads to conusmers claiming its unfinished.

It has to all be very good, all average or all poor, as soon as you mix those qualities then the product feels disjointed and usually attracts criticism of one kind or another.

There are several developers who actively target this middle market and on the whole do very well, but they do also attract their fair share of criticism, some justified, some not, the balance being individually subjective.

Personally im one of the consumers
that love the average versions, we are not all pilots
and its all about fun to me
i may not speak for all ,
you are correct in dont mix and match in my view
and yes we all want different things
accusim is too hard for me in general
fsx is a hobby to me not a real thing
obviously other people have other opinions
H

 

[Lewis-A2A]

I still think Alphasim should get back into that middle market, as you say Micheal there is a real market out there for those that dont want the depth and just want relaxing flight/arcade/sim.

 

[d0mokun]

Yet when AS did serve the 'middle market', there were plenty of people saying the contrary, along with some pretty harsh criticisms.

Devil's advocate.. away! :ernae:

 

[Mathias]

Yet when AS did serve the 'middle market', there were plenty of people saying the contrary, along with some pretty harsh criticisms.

Devil's advocate.. away! :ernae:

You can't please every blessed mother's son.
Judging by the download numbers of the "Just fly" mod we posted as an update to the Fw190 it appears that about 75% "just want to fly". Not sure if the other 25% just didn't get word about the update yet.
So I think for the future we'll keep offering high detail visuals with scalable system/realism modelling, all in one box/one price.

 

[falcon409]

Personally im one of the consumers that love the average versions, we are not all pilots and its all about fun to me i may not speak for all. You are correct in dont mix and match in my view and yes we all want different things. Accusim is too hard for me in general, fsx is a hobby to me not a real thing. Obviously other people have other opinions
H

Kinda my take on it too Henry. I will never get to fly on my own and it's not from lack of desire, simple economics really. I don't have the money it takes to pursue that luxury any more. In Flight sim I can, at my leisure, putter around in anything I want, at any speed and any altitude under any conditions (none of that necessarily realistic, lol). So complex models will never be anything I'm interested in.

That brings me to the "middle market" and why, lately, that area has become more enticing. My opinion is that it's driven by the ever increasing prices of a lot of the current models. Back when the middle market aircraft were being developed, many folks saw those as "toys", not complex enough in their minds to be considered "real" aircraft, but fun enough for the "slackers" among us, lol, to be interesting. For many, they lacked the complexities they desperately wanted developers to start building into the creations they delivered.

Now, we've created a monster (so to speak) in that the more complex, and time consuming the models are for developers to build the price has risen to a point where many of us are being priced out of the market and moving away from that "complexity" that we don't really care much about and back. . .full circle. . .to "middle market" models. This is not a slap against the complexity of today's models, nor the pricing (it goes with the territory). It's simply my opinion on why that "middle market" model is something folks are looking for once again.

We are a fickle lot to be sure. . .and that also goes with the territory, lol

 

[Lewis-A2A]

we get a bit of bashing on our high realism stuff being too real, you just got to concentrate on your audience and not the fs fanbase in general.

An example is how our 377 and Cub have brought in more customers than the warbirds have together, in those circles we were simply not known to the fs user.

 

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

The ratio you mention Mathias is what a number of polls and experience have shown as the preferred option , it’s been something that i have learned from and followed.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o></o>
Applying realistic start-up procedures and a degree of engine management seems to be the happy medium that i now aim for , those who want to watch every gauge and system have proved to be a minority. <o></o>
<o></o>
My job depends on providing what the majority want, the flight dynamics , sounds , look and feel need to be top class , eye candy and little extras like making things multiplayer friendly are important as well but having smoke belch out with the least oversight turned out to piss off more people that it made happy in every instance, so it’s not something i add to a release any more.<o></o>
<o> </o>

 

[Ferry_vO]

Of course this is a warbird sim community, which is not used to having fully realistic models. Most civil flightsimmers in here have their roots in the 'fly & shoot' sims like IL-2 and the CFS series. There's another, and much bigger, group of simmers that only fly airliners with all the switches etc working that demand a high degree of realism.

Personally I really like the current wave of realistic aircraft from Classics hangar, A2A, Realair etc, so much in fact that when I go back to more basic models I find them 'lacking' somewhat.

However, these models do come at a price, and I find myself buying a lot less models these days. In the haydays of Fs2004 I would buy 2 or 3 Alphasim models a month, simply becasue they were cheap and I liked the aircraft.
It all depends on my personal taste how much I want to pay for any add-on. If I really like the aircraft in question I do look at the model and VC first, then the feature set and finally the amount of realism.

 

[crashaz]

we get a bit of bashing on our high realism stuff being too real, you just got to concentrate on your audience and not the fs fanbase in general.

An example is how our 377 and Cub have brought in more customers than the warbirds have together, in those circles we were simply not known to the fs user.

What knocking warbirds! Why I oughta!

Just kidding Lewis.

Looking forward to the new year and see what comes out of the A2A ironworks.

 

[IanP]

I fly a mix, but would have no problem at all seeing middle ground products back and I don't think the market is restricted to the warbird arena either - there are any number of airliners and GA aircraft out there that offer nothing more than default functionality. The sheer presence of a certain well known mass-producer of boxed FS add-ons shows that there's still a market for default-level military aircraft as well. Would there be anywhere near as many "Flight Deck" incarnations as their have been if they didn't sell?

Edit to add: Ferry - there's also a massive amount of airliner fans perfectly happy with default levels of systems. The number of people who get upset when top-end add-ons don't have a switch to connect the NAV autopilot mode to the default GPS and want to be able to hit engine autostart rather than pressing two buttons to start a Boeing when presented with a fully-set-up-for-engine-start default state, is very great indeed.

 

[Henry]

You can't please every blessed mother's son.
Judging by the download numbers of the "Just fly" mod we posted as an update to the Fw190 it appears that about 75% "just want to fly". Not sure if the other 25% just didn't get word about the update yet.
So I think for the future we'll keep offering high detail visuals with scalable system/realism modelling, all in one box/one price.

i must be one of the 25% I didnt know:isadizzy:

we get a bit of bashing on our high realism stuff being too real, you just got to concentrate on your audience and not the fs fanbase in general.

An example is how our 377 and Cub have brought in more customers than the warbirds have together, in those circles we were simply not known to the fs user.

Bashing is not a good thing
i do not bash about high realism its a great thing
its just not for me but i can see why those 2 products would out sell
warbirds, what is the audience?/ fs fanbase?
i would think that the warbird section was actually a small base
the Ga and Commercial airliners was the mainstream
the SOH is mainly warbirds
but we are not the B all of flight sim consumers .
As a commercial developer\ business how much determines
what is to be made, ie is it what you like to create or is it what you like to sell?
there is a large market out there
for diverse products
look at scenery for example
lost of great products orbx, Tongas just to name a few
how many WW2 scenery's are payware?
sorry just got a little off topic
H

 

[IanP]

how many WW2 scenery's are payware?

Don't let Lewis see that line...

 

[Henry]

Don't let Lewis see that line...

LOL
H

 

[Nick C]

This thread has most likely strayed off topic now (I didn't read all the posts), but to answer Colin's initial question; I wouldn't purchase a model before it's complete and even then, usually not until a few people have publicly griped and a service patch or two has been released by the developer.

I'm not your typical customer I admit, but even if something I really want is being developed, I'm still happy to wait as long as it takes. I've never subscribed to the 'is it ready yet' customer emotion, if a project needs another month or two for completion and a bit of polish, we'll that suits me just fine as that will pass soon enough.

I understand why a developer would want to sell a product half finished, but I don't understand why a customer would pay for it.

 

[IanP]

I understand why a developer would want to sell a product half finished, but I don't understand why a customer would pay for it.

I can in some instances - exactly the same as some people will buy a product that they have no intention of using - which is to support a developer, particularly if they are a friend.

However, if a developer is going to do that, they should only sell what is done as a fraction of the price of the full model. Certainly, no way would I ever buy an exterior model for $30 or $40 with a promise that the rest is on the way. The exterior of a $30 model for $10 though? I'd consider it, if I could use it. Then again, I'm not your typical customer, either.

 

[falcon409]

. . .I understand why a developer would want to sell a product half finished, but I don't understand why a customer would pay for it.

Yea, I have to agree Nick and realistically I would hope it's a practice that is short lived. I think the negativity that has become associated with this is hardly worth whatever monies the developer might take in. We're in a time when money is not grown on trees anymore (much to the chagrin of my granddaughter, lol) and developers would like to bring in some additional funds to keep them encouraged that everything their doing is worth the effort and get some idea of the customer base prior to a release.

I just wouldn't pay anything for a half done model, even by a reputable developer. I don't need any aircraft that bad. . .shoot I don't fly even a small percentage of the aircraft I own as it is, lol. So, as you say. . .back to the original topic. I hope that answers (for my part), the original question.:salute:

 

[Lewis-A2A]

oh no Henry not aimed at you at all matey, I wrote that reply to Dan's question about alpha getting bashed themselves for the middle market models and by the time I hit post others had posted.

You are right Roger Warbirds are a small section of the market, PDMG etc outsell I bet every other developer that posts on this board with there single 747 simply because of how much bigger that market is, real niche markets within niche markets.

 

[Odie]

Well, speaking as the simplest man on the planet I'm not a hardcore flyer...kind of jump in and go, most of the time. I enjoy that the switches work and do things, but the only plane that I do enjoy all the bells 'n whistles on is the IRIS F-14D. Due to the a/c interest itself, I will struggle to get it up as it was designed, but 95% of a/c, I like them simple enough to be functional and get into the air without having to be a real-world pilot to keep them there! And to their credit, most designers do offer a 1,2,3 step system for those of us that just want to fly (Mathias, thanks for the JUST FLY utility for your beautiful FW-190, BTW).

In the past, I always felt that AlphaSim filled a notch by providing inexpensive a/c of a type not being provided elsewhere. They had a pretty good stable and all at a good price that wouldn't tax your wallet even if they had one a month coming out. I was disappointed when they started going to the high-end of the market.

Would I buy half a model? Depends on the plane. If it were one that I really liked and no one else was producing. The exterior would have to be drop-dead beautiful, though, especially if it was a high-dollar price.

Again, it depends on the individual and what they want to experience out of FS.