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I Must Ask This Question

casey jones

Charter Member
I have very high hopes fror FSX, I bought it even though I do not have a PC that will run it, but it seems that all that is coming out for FSX is payware airplanes, there are almost no new planes for freeware, I read an article by Mr Dave Eckett he said that MS made the FSX code even harder to make new planes so that developers would make quality add-ons. Thank you for reading this.

Cheers

Casey
 
there are almost no new planes for freeware

disagree
their are many high quality freeware airplanes for FSX (Piglets planes for example)
another fact is that almost the whole aerobatic plane market is Freeware dominated! (Zlin,Su-26, Edge 540, Concept5 Coyote)


BR
Tom
 
Well actually, Mr. Eckett's statement is incorrect. FSX is different code wise to FSX, but it's not necessarily more difficult.

What is harder is hitting peoples' expectations with FSX. In FS5, an 8-sided fuselage with 256-colour textures was... like... wow! It's something like the aircraft I wanted!

By the time you reach FS9, a mere four versions later, people want 32-bit textures, smooth polygons, virtual cockpits and custom sound sets, because the sim is capable of using them, so therefore everyone should be doing so.

Now go forward another version to FSX and the most vocal people want the massive polygon increase that FSX has over FS9 to be used. Smooth polys aren't good enough. We want smoother polys. 32-bit textures? Old hat. We want 2048x2048 32-bit textures with bump maps, environment maps, reflection maps and a mere custom sound set isn't good enough, it now has to change as you pan around the aircraft. You have to do both external and internal self shadowing.

If you developed, from the ground up, a model for both FS9 and FSX to the same level of detail, there are actually very few changes. The primary ones are the loss of a few capabilities for reasons I don't know and the fact that the animation method has changed. The amount of work to create a full featured FSX model, however, is vastly higher than that required to create a fully featured FS9 model, because the number of features has increased.

FSX freeware models are out there. Look at the theads here for things that people like Dave Garwood, Piglet and similar have produced. Anthony's superb new Tiger Moth is another good example, which is currently a live thread here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=30728

Expectations have changed more than the difficulty, is my answer.
 
You can look at the FSX SDK as being more difficult, or as offering a fantastic variety of new options. I choose the latter. Sure, it takes a bit of study to learn them, but it's worth it.
 
You can look at the FSX SDK as being more difficult, or as offering a fantastic variety of new options. I choose the latter. Sure, it takes a bit of study to learn them, but it's worth it.

Spot on. Although, in Dave's defense, I think he probably was referring to the level of expectation people have with all of the new features. It's one of those double edged sword problems. As a community, we asked for more capability, and we got it. ;)
 
there's alot of good freeware for fsx. didn't we have a thread about that in here somewhere? i know there is a list of "gems" for fs9. we should compile one for fsx as well. heck a stroll just through our own download library will confirm that even if you only get stuff from here, there is a real nice selection.
 
I have very high hopes fror FSX, I bought it even though I do not have a PC that will run it, but it seems that all that is coming out for FSX is payware airplanes, there are almost no new planes for freeware, I read an article by Mr Dave Eckett he said that MS made the FSX code even harder to make new planes so that developers would make quality add-ons. Thank you for reading this.

Cheers

Casey

This is just my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. I have been designing since the days of FS98 using AF99. I now design almost exclusively for FSX and have been for about 2 years. I personally did not find it more difficult to design for FSX, just different. It really did take me a while to learn the new materials and some animations. These problems were because I continue to use FSDS as my main design tool. It did not handle FSX materials and some animations properly. Fortunately, Dave Nunez developed his FSXTweak program which solves those problems.
I also have noticed the lack of freeware FSX airplane entries. I suspect it has more to do with the level of detail that seems to be desired for most projects compared to a couple of years ago. I know it takes me about 3 times as long to get a project to where I am satisfied with it.
Just my opinion.

Paul
 
The one thing that really does surprise me for FSX is the total lack of interest in modelling for AI, which still seems to be entirely centred around, focussed on and intended for use in FS9.

That is one area where you will not find freeware FSX-native development and are entirely limited to payware. I don't even pretend to understand why.
 
The one thing that really does surprise me for FSX is the total lack of interest in modelling for AI, which still seems to be entirely centred around, focussed on and intended for use in FS9.

That is one area where you will not find freeware FSX-native development and are entirely limited to payware. I don't even pretend to understand why.

Exactemundo.

Get me the source files and I'd personally convert every AI plane ever made for FSX.
Also thought about doing my own AI models from scratch using already existing textures for highest compatiblity. But seeing all those different AI models in my folder, this would be an awfully time-consuming process.


P.S: Dave Rawlins' last model (763 w/ winglets) comes in a FSX native version. That's a first in freeware.
 
wellll, you gotta admit. FS9 opened up a lot of doors for developers, and everyone and their grandmothers started making stuff for fs9.. so much so that it became a landslide of available addons. Then when fsx came out and changed the entire playing field for everyone, it meant having to completely re-do all that work, and a lot of people simple said f**k it. i cant blame them at all reallyl I know how much effort i have to put in just for doing a flight model in fsx, and i imagine that updating the fs9 stuff to fsx is even more daunting.. We all wanted a better fs9 when fsx came out, but what we got was practically a whole new flight sim..
Still, there are plenty of freeware options available. many of the best can be found right here on soh and created by our own members. it's just a matter of looking around in the downloads section to see whats there.. Others that have stepped up to the plate on freeware fsx offerings are folks like OzX with some outstanding freeware scenery.
It's out there, but it's not always easy to find..
 
Then when fsx came out and changed the entire playing field for everyone, it meant having to completely re-do all that work, and a lot of people simple said f**k it.

I can't speak for FDEs, but wouldn't it be "just" animations and new materials for the models to make a FS9 model FSX-native?

And isn't the former composed of renaming parts and tagging them using the animation tool while the latter is setting up a new material and assigning them to the mesh?

It surely is time consuming yes, but why do it yourself?
I like Milton Shupe's approach for FSX-native models. He gust gave his source files to someone keen with FSX development and let him convert it for him.
Eaglesoft does it similarly if my mind doesn't fail me.
 
Eaglesoft does it similarly if my mind doesn't fail me.


The approach(es) used by developers will vary depending on whether an FS9 model already exists or not.

If a model exists, the developer has to decide what (and how much) to convert. In some cases, the level of conversion practically requires a rebuild of many parts.

IF it is a new model being built from the ground up, then the developer has to decide how to name (and animate) the animated parts so that the same tag can be used in both FS9 and FSX. OVerall, with careful planning, building first for FS-X, and then "converting" for FS9 is easier.

In either case, one of the main problems tends to be teh custom xml coding - the syntax is slightly different between the two sims, and many a developer has been reduced to a catatonic state only to discover that one letter was not capitlized in the code......
 
That's assuming you want to convert.

The original question was about FSX freeware and the fact is that there's less FSX native freeware available than there is for FS9. No-one can argue about that, but creating for both sims is, IMO, a pointless debate. FSX's big problem is that fewer people are creating for it at all, not just for both sims.

Ultimately it does come down to the fact that most FS9 freeware developers are, understandably, sticking to the easy way out and continuing to develop for a sim they know and understand. That leaves the question of why developers are not developing from scratch for FSX and that can only come down to the fact that it's harder to satisfy the requirements of themselves, let alone the "customer base", so they don't bother.

Commercial developers, on the other hand, have got to look to the future, not to the past, so have moved for the most part to FSX only, or joint FS9/FSX, development because FSX is the growing, not the shrinking, market. Things look a lot different when you are being paid for what you do than they do when you're not!
 
As a developer, I can speak on this.

In FS9, many animations were hard coded, so you didnt have to animate alot of parts. In FSX, all parts including propellers and tires, must be animated.

After animating, you tag them with Animation manager, and fill out its animation key max points, zero to 50, zero to 100, etc. If its a switch, then you also need a Attachment/Mouse Rect. If it has an effect, then you also need an Attach Effect (such as Viz, Lights, etc).

In FS9, you had reflective and transparent materials governed by Alpha channels. In FSX, you have Diffuse (main) plus Specular, Bump map, and optional others, like environment map (like for super shiny parts, glass, etc), and the list goes on. You can have an average of 5 to 7 material components (textures) in a single material. (one.... ) whereas in FS9, you had a Diffuse, Lightmap (optional) and thats about it.

Concerning code, for some reason, (they say it was a good one) they changed the way XML is spelled and written. Thats like taking English and making spelling different. Ok, so now we have to learn to write in the new language, and it took long enough to learn the one we did learn. But the fun doesnt stop there. You have to add two entries (paragraph blocks) for each animation code (for making a part move, visible, etc in the Max/Gmax model). These 'each' include custom serial numbers, similar to the password code for Windows, such as lets say 2345-J434J-4958945-L90 None can be the same number or it crashes your master XML list and your planes will not animate in FSX.



For me, it takes perhaps say 4 to 6+ months to make a high detail plane in FS9. Then it takes another month or two to simply convert it. If you think about that, its overwhelming. The work load, in my humble opinion is quadrupled.


There are also side factors that add to the time element. FS Tools do not always function. Animating everything can be difficult, such as wheels that are mounted on a landing gear that is folding up, where you must spin it in the correct direction in key frame points, while it its mounted to a landing gear at an angle, and with the landing gear raising up. (one instance). Some of the time, a part will get a wrong Attach tag, and you try to change it, and it takes several tries or sometimes, you simply cant get it to change and you have to literally delete the part and make another because of this tag issue. When you go to test a plane, it takes FSX a boot up time of nearly 4 to 5 mins. For me, I can go make a pot of coffee, wipe the counter down, strole back in my room, and the sim is still at say 8% or 12% loading. That is at a 'saved' airport' with plane on the ramp, ready, and in a stock invironment, no photo real scenery. So that takes a huge impact. Mind you, thats the first boot up on a cold start computer. If you keep rebooting FSX, the restarts speed up as the RAM already has sim parts loaded.

Finding glitches in animation XML is doubled. Two blocks per code entry.

Adjusting things like tinted windows can be a nightmare. I just went through that a couple of weeks ago. Found out it was one tiny 'tick' away from working. Took over a week to find it though. There are so many options and ticks and sliderders for each FSX material, that you can get lost in it, even after working in them for several years..




It was much easier to make FS9 planes. That is no joke.. But now everyone owns FSX and thats what people are crying for, and the old school guys do not wish to learn 'everything' (code, quadrupled work load, new animation tagging systems) all over again.

Switching the code was hurrendous alone.. Rewriting the wheel...

Three good things I like from this;
1. Speed the compiler works at.. AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!
2. No limits on polygon quantities nor Vertice proximity (distance) limits.. Unlimited
3. Huge size textures allowed.

Anyhow, I hope that provides some perspective.

Not a complaint, just a 'how-it-is'.



Bill
 
I can't speak for FDEs, but wouldn't it be "just" animations and new materials for the models to make a FS9 model FSX-native?

I wish that were true.. truth is, theres an amzing difference between some flight models for fsx and the same flight model for fs9. Getting the plane to behave exactly the same way in both sims is a major challenge. At times, it can be a difference between gauges and xml coding in the gauges ( or the lack of it ) and sometimes it can be the actual fde itself as some things are simply treated differently in fsx than they are in fs9. Certain sections of an fsx airfile get ignored, other sections are unforgiving. it's lead a number of developers to use "blank" air files and simply put everything into the aircraft.cfg file. I'll hold my opinion of that practice to myself however..
As a flight model engineer 9 for lack of a better term ) fsx gives me a much larger palette to work with and i can create dynamics that are much much closer to realistic behaviour than i could in fs9. That said, it's also a palette that is way too willing to thump you hard for any mistakes at all..

From my personal viewpoint, the visual model and animations are the least of the food chain. The flight model and the gauges have to be exact and work together seemlessly to provide you with a realistic flying experience.

That said, there's one thing about modeling for fsx that no one has mentioned, and thats the time involved. With greater expectations being placed on developers for higher quality products, there has also been an increased impatience for how long those products take to develope. The days when a developer could take a year or more to develope a quality aircraft are gone. nowdays it's typically three months, if not less. You can ask any of the flight modellers in here about that and they'll tell you, three months is nothing. it can take upwards of a year of eighteen hour days to make a plane fly correctly. key word is correctly. anyone can make a plane go up in the air, but making it perform exactly like the real plane is an art onto itself..

I dont believe in fs9 that we really had much of a care as to how well a plane did or didnt fly. most fs9 planes were toys and we all ( mostly ) accepted that. But in fsx, reality has taken on a whole new importance, and more than ever, getting a sim within realistic tolerances has become the mainstay of the business ( freeware as well ).. If people could aquire a bit more patience, we developers could offer them so much more than we can right now. but theres always that push for time to market, and the balancing act between real and too real and what can be done in a short amount of time.. in the end, it's you, the customer who loses.
 
In some cases, the level of conversion practically requires a rebuild of many parts.

Can you elaborate that?




Bill, I was talking more about freeware. That the conversion of payware planes is way more demanding (especially in terms of textures) is understood.

But for me personally, it would be enough just having the same model made on the same level that it was on FS9. No bump maps or other extra BS, just compatible materials and animations and compiled with MakeMDLX.

And, even though speaking from a high horse (my *real* contributions to the FSX world in terms of actually released stuff are next to none) I think I have an advantage since I only got into development *after* FSX had been released so I could gather some experience from a clean slate.

If it benefitted my FSX installation (primary motivation) I would surely and at least give converting planes and sceneries a try.



From my personal viewpoint, the visual model and animations are the least of the food chain. The flight model and the gauges have to be exact and work together seemlessly to provide you with a realistic flying experience.

It's actually the whole package that counts but this is subject to personal preference.

getting a sim within realistic tolerances has become the mainstay of the business ( freeware as well )..

For freeware at least, this isn't necessarily the developer's responsibility.
MSFS's architecture is open to a degree so anyone can change anything that is accessible and make it avaiable for anyone (with the dev's consent).
The problem is problems with things that are hardcoded to the inaccessible parts of an add-on (.mdl files...).


If I have to delete an aircraft I like because a hard-coded switch in the VC model does not function correctly I regret not having a source file at hand to at least immediately investigate the problem (whether I can fix it or not is a different question). Sure, I could email the developer about the problem or ask him for the source files but the delay in getting a reply (caused by time zone or recipient's email checking habit) is most likely going to kill my motivation.

Personal opinion: FS developers should make (more of) their source files publically avaiable. This would be a big benefit for the community since a lot of old FS9 add-ons could re-emerge in FSX-native versions and perfect for ad-hoc developers like me who don't want to reinvent the wheel to change a broken spoke.
 
What could *possibly* be feasible among FSX aircraft payware developers would be to provide a specific model for AI use with each new aircraft released?
 
It's a little more tricky than that, unfortunately. The flight dynamics for "normal" aircraft don't always work at all well as AI (Dan Dunn's Lancaster springs to mind) and you really have to hammer down the poly count to make AI effective, while as has already been said a lot on this thread, the users want ever higher poly counts and more detail on their aircraft.

AI and user aircraft are two entirely different kettles of fish - however the AI models are far easier to produce, which is why I am so baffled as to why no-one at all does them for FSX.
 
You can look at the FSX SDK as being more difficult, or as offering a fantastic variety of new options. I choose the latter. Sure, it takes a bit of study to learn them, but it's worth it.

Exactly!!

What could *possibly* be feasible among FSX aircraft payware developers would be to provide a specific model for AI use with each new aircraft released?

Exactly!!

I am fairly happy with addons for FSX. what I don't have, I know will eventually come out, either as freeware or payware. I remember when the Flightscenery addons for FS9 were at the pinnacle of FS detail; and now for FSX, there are so many addons that rival those and surpass them.

The only thing "I" am missing for FSX is an easier way to create AI traffic files, LOL.
 
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