Polish government dead in plane crash!!!

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I mean no disrespect. I sincerely hope the truth will be revealed - even with a Wladimir Putin as head of the commission...
But it's known Kaczynski had obliged pilots in the past to land against their will - and so they did. I just add one thing to the other. As Ken says I am not 100% certain, but I have suspicions.

I hope the truth - accident or not - comes out eventually.

 

[lucas81]

Gents,
Once again I would thank you very much for your condolences! It is a great shock for the whole nation. Every single detah would be a huge loss...
As for the crash causes. The Russian and Polish specialists are investigating the cause and we will have to wait for the final opinion. True, the landing procedure was not OK, but I'd wait what the specialists will say. At the moment we need to unite here and forget who is the left or from the right. And this crash can also has a big, positive impact on the Polish-Russian conciliation. Things started to change on the 7th of April, when our prime minister met with mr Putin in, again, Katyn.

 

[jmig]

I heard about this late last night. My prayers and condolences go out to the people of Poland during this time of grief.

Note to all Posters:
This is not going to become a thread of conspiracy theories and suspected murder. I will delete any posts which advocate blame based on supposition or conspiracy. Let this thread be one of mourning the loss of lives and the grief of Poland.

 

[wombat666]

My desire to emigrate to the planet Mars is not one based on economic factors but because this planet is becoming inhabited by an inordinate number of ostriches and sheep.

Please don't let us hold you back.

It is a tragedy for an entire nation, with nothing to be gained at this time by pointless speculation.
The truth will come out in the end.

 

[Ken Stallings]

Well, I guess it has now been confirmed by multiple sources that the pilot attempted a total of four Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP's). That by itself is very bad form, very bad form. The other thing I heard stated is that the best IAP for that particular airport (in terms of lowest allowed ceilings and visibility minimums) was an Airborne Survellience Radar Approach (ASR), possibly precision (PAR).

If that is the case, then when the final approach controllers and/or the approach controllers advised the pilot that the airport was closed due to visibility below minimums, and advised he should divert, then the pilot was procedurally wrong to even start the first approach.

To then attempt a second, again contrary to ATC instructions, was extremely poor judgement.

To then perform a third and fourth was beyond anything I have heard a professional pilot perform before this.

Based upon all this, and upon my personal experience shooting IAP's, one of the principle dangers is trying to cheat on the minimums while the pilot is scanning inside the plane to reference instruments, and outside the plane to try to discern the runway, is you end up hitting some obstruction either by getting too low and/or wandering off course.

Given the known facts (four attempts contrary to ATC instructions), I feel there is very little doubt that for some reason the PIC used extremely poor judgment with horrible and tragic results for an entire nation and world.

One of the saddest aviation disasters in human history, and all so entirely preventable through good pilot judgment.

Ken

 

[tigisfat]

Well, I guess it has now been confirmed by multiple sources that the pilot attempted a total of four Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP's). That by itself is very bad form, very bad form.

I tend to agree. I think he may have been 'feeling it a little lower' with each approach since the sight picture looked okay every time he went around. Sadly, it's a common thing.


Many aviation organizations (governmental) tend to make their own rules for missions that they deem are of crucial importance. I'd suggest that he may have disregarded minimums because 'he is an experienced pilot who'll be just fine, and the president is on board'. The mission must get accomplished.


Personally, I've always made the conservative choice. Sometimes I can 'monday morning quarterback' myself and realize that I was too conservative, but I'm still alive and haven't wrecked a plane.

My favorite old CFI told me this: If it takes you more than 30 seconds to firmly make a 'go' decision when weighing all factors, that should be the heaviest deciding factor telling you not to go. Things will only change if I'm hauling someone who will die if I don't get there or world peace rests on me dipping below minimums for a quick look.

 

[Z-claudius24]

Hi,

Some news (read yellow ) and seem's the number of approaches was ONE and no more (for obvious reasons)

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

 

[Ken Stallings]

Things will only change if I'm hauling someone who will die if I don't get there or world peace rests on me dipping below minimums for a quick look.

I have to keep that point in mind on my Grace Flight missions and make sure I don't do things that are stupid in an effort to get the patient to his/hers treatments. That's awful tough when you realize these treatments are keeping them alive. But, treatments can be rescheduled and if you pile drive your aircraft into terrain trying to force an approach, the need for future treatments are alleviated!

The only time in my life in aviation I've ever truly pushed it was during a combat rescue mission the first month of the war in Afghanistan. I knew if we didn't get those guys off that mountain and home, the Taliban would capture them and torture to death those who weren't killed outright in the firefight!

We got them all home safe. We made it back. But there is no doubt we were very fortunate to live through that misison. Whenever I encounter dire circumstances now, I think back on my mental approach that night and make myself back off because nothing will ever be that dire in my life again.

It's a tough situation, especially when your patients are suffering from advanced cancer and you realize those treatments might keep them alive another six months if done on time.

Ken

 

[Ken Stallings]

Hi,

Some news (read yellow ) and seem's the number of approaches was ONE and no more (for obvious reasons)

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

I appreciate that link. That's the first news source I have read referencing only one approach attempt. But, it's also the most factually complete news article I have so far read. 400 meters visibility is really low. That's about 1,400 feet, which is less than a quarter statute mile visibility.

As I type this, I just am having heartbreak wondering, "Why oh why didn't someone call 'Knock it off!'"

It wasn't even a close decision.

Ken

 

[tonybones2112]

Exactly the time and the place for that comment. Others in this very thread speculate about pilot a error. I speculate about a dictatorial man who obliged pilots to land against their professional judgement. The 4 go arounds (against better knowledge as teasea said), the ignored tower messages - everything speaks for it. And events in the past of this president back it up. Moaning yes, respect yes. But for the right people. That doesnt mean there is an obligation to stop thinking. Looking for the truth is no disrespect of the dead, it's respect for the dead.

The reason Ronnie Van Zandt and several members of the rock group Lynyrd Skynyrd died in their plane in 1977 was Ronnie Van Zandt. He was told quite explicitly by the pilots they were low on fuel and needed to stop and refuel, he, in a drunken rage, refused. I knew someone who survived that crash(now deceased) and am informed of all the details of that event.

I second that statement on truth. It's no disrespect to the 29 miners killed in W. Virginia to hang the owner of the mine for knowingly running it when it was unsafe. It's a duty and an obligation to insist on a full investigation and full disclosure of the facts surrounding this horrible "accident" in Russia so that they don't happen again. Otherwise the spirit of the Warren "Commission" lives on worldwide. Yeah, I'm a born dissenter. We dissenters and hardcases are pulled off the shelf to fight the wars when some multinational business's interests are threatened and then put back on the shelf and told to shut up. I'd say by that blood we have the right to speak out. I'm neither Polish nor of Polish extraction yet I beleive the Polish people deserve an explanation as we do on who killed JFK. The Poles have been the brunt of jokes for decades as boobs; you only need to go up aginst a Pole in combat to put paid, as our Brit friends say, to that myth. I have Polish friends and their view is the same as mine: send in the NTSB and FAA.

Bones

 

[wombat666]

I have Polish friends and their view is the same as mine: send in the NTSB and FAA.
Bones

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.

 

[Bjoern]

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.

The NTSB has a lot more experience and, to be fair, polish aircraft don't fall from the skies very often.
Having one or another "bigger" investigation bureau lend a hand isn't that improbable.

 

[wombat666]

The NTSB has a lot more experience and, to be fair, polish aircraft don't fall from the skies very often.
Having one or another "bigger" investigation bureau lend a hand isn't that improbable.

I certainly agree re the experience of the NTSB, but the inference made that the NTSB and the FAA 'MUST' step in is premature.
Only if invited is standard procedure unless it is an American built aircraft, American citizens involved or an American operated aircraft.
Until such assistance is requested the 'Conspiracy Nuts' will just have to wait and conspire.

 

[Ken Stallings]

I certainly agree re the experience of the NTSB, but the inference made that the NTSB and the FAA 'MUST' step in is premature.
Only if invited is standard procedure unless it is an American built aircraft, American citizens involved or an American operated aircraft.
Until such assistance is requested the 'Conspiracy Nuts' will just have to wait and conspire.

No question, the NTSB has no necessity to get involved. Poland and Russia have enough expertise to conduct a proper investigation.

Ken

 

[tonybones2112]

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.

Wombat, in WW2 we had 5 brothers in the US Navy, the Sullivans, on one ship. It was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. War is hell, everyone involved were just doing their duty. All 5 brothers died, wiping out the dreams of one family.

Why was the, as is reported, the "entire" Polish govt. on one plane, and one reputed to be "old" and "obsolete"?

Why? I guess because more than one person besides myself shares a knowledge of past behavior and a track record by a certain govt. Many many people besides myself smells a rat. I have as many Russian friends as I do anything else, my comments are not derogating a people or a nation. The motive, unknown at the moment, that's for people more politically active to discern. Any US technician is there to look for empiric evidence, turn it over to the governing organs, and let them decide.

Most of the world know nothing of the names I cite but should be remembered: Patrice Lammumba, Dag Hammerskjold, Lev Rebet, and Stepan Bandera, and I hope that the names of those who died in this tragedy are not added to the list.

Bones

 

[tonybones2112]

I'll take being a conspiracy "nut" over being an ostrich any day of the week.

Bones

 

[Piglet]

Deleted for inappropriate comment.

 

[6297J]

Deleted for inappropriate comment.

 

[Piglet]

Deleted because it is a follow up to the two posts above.

None the the three posts were construstive to the thread and violated the rule I stated earlier:

Note to all Posters:
This is not going to become a thread of conspiracy theories and suspected murder. I will delete any posts which advocate blame based on supposition or conspiracy. Let this thread be one of mourning the loss of lives and the grief of Poland.

 

[wombat666]

Wombat, in WW2 we had 5 brothers in the US Navy, the Sullivans, on one ship. It was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. War is hell, everyone involved were just doing their duty. All 5 brothers died, wiping out the dreams of one family.

Why was the, as is reported, the "entire" Polish govt. on one plane, and one reputed to be "old" and "obsolete"?

Why? I guess because more than one person besides myself shares a knowledge of past behavior and a track record by a certain govt. Many many people besides myself smells a rat. I have as many Russian friends as I do anything else, my comments are not derogating a people or a nation. The motive, unknown at the moment, that's for people more politically active to discern. Any US technician is there to look for empiric evidence, turn it over to the governing organs, and let them decide.

Most of the world know nothing of the names I cite but should be remembered: Patrice Lammumba, Dag Hammerskjold, Lev Rebet, and Stepan Bandera, and I hope that the names of those who died in this tragedy are not added to the list.

Bones

The Sullivan brothers were serving aboard the USS Juneau, CL52.
IIRC the Juneau was hit by a 'Long Lance' torpedo launched from a Japanese DD during the 'Naval Battle of Guadalcanal' in mid November 1942, forcing her to withdraw. Later that day, she was hit by a submarine launched torpedo and sunk.

Patrice Lumumba was the first elected Prime Minister of the newly independent Republic of the Congo. He was executed early in 1961, allegedly by a Katangan death squad with the tacit approval of Belgian and US operatives.

Dag Hammarskjöld, UN Secretary General, died as a result of an 'unexplained' air crash while en route to the Congo over Northern Rhodesia in late 1961.

Lev Rebet was (briefly) the President of the Republic of the Ukraine until arrested by the Gestapo and held for 3 years in Auschwitz.
Rebet was assassinated late 1957 in Munich by a KGB operative.

Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian nationalist, anti Polish terrorist, an anti-Semite (Bandera harmed or helped Jews depending on 'circumstances') and NAZI collaborator.
Bandera died in October 1959, poisoned by a KGB operative in Munich, allegedly on the orders of Alexander Shelepin and Nikita Krushchev.

Some of us 'ignorant unwashed ostriches ' know more about history than you give us credit for.