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Civic Duty Part 2

First of all, the OP said the government botched the case, and so a conviction was lost, not the private lawyers. I'm not at all surprised to learn the government did something inefficiently and ineffectively. That's how they do most things. For that reason, but it isn't the most important reason, I don't think I want to be defended by the DMV if I get accused of a crime. Secondly, and most importantly, you seem to be saying that it would be great if, when I am accused of a crime by the government, that the lawyer appointed to "defend" me should be working for that very same government. No, thanks...

The judge works for the government also.

Just because defense lawyers would work for the government doesn't mean they would have conflict of interest. For wealthy people, the rich lawyers might well be a benefit. But, do we really want the fate of justice come down to wealth of the defendant? Why should someone poor have less a quality of defense? Yet, by making that half of the equation private, the system ends up too often putting poor people at increases jeapardy.

I think my first sentence made it clear I understood who botched the case.

Cheers,

Ken
 
i resemble that remark:salute:;)
but you also understand
you may have a video of someone shooting someone
and if its not allowed and its the only positive evidence you have
there may not be much you can do
you know he is guilty but without proof,
its not perfect but it is what we have to work with
and thats the same world wide
H
 
but you also understand
you may have a video of someone shooting someone
and if its not allowed and its the only positive evidence you have
there may not be much you can do
you know he is guilty but without proof,
its not perfect but it is what we have to work with
and thats the same world wide
H

I can only imagine why a definitive piece of evidence like a video would not be allowed in unless there is some doubt to its authenticity or content. If this evidence is so irrefutable, then why didn't the defendant just plead guilty/nolo?
 
I can only imagine why a definitive piece of evidence like a video would not be allowed in unless there is some doubt to its authenticity or content. If this evidence is so irrefutable, then why didn't the defendant just plead guilty/nolo?

well i think Henry was using a video as an extreme example but improperly handled, bad chain of custody, improperly seized, etc. could cause even the most valuable piece of evidence to be thrown out. not to mention alot depends on what kind of judge is sitting on the bench. there are those inclinded to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt and there are some that are just the opposite.
 
True.

The justice system has fallen prey to too many "free" thinkers. Its a crying shame when a criminal has more rights than a victim or their family. Way tooooooo many libutards in the justice business.
 
well i think Henry was using a video as an extreme example but improperly handled, bad chain of custody, improperly seized, etc. could cause even the most valuable piece of evidence to be thrown out. not to mention alot depends on what kind of judge is sitting on the bench. there are those inclinded to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt and there are some that are just the opposite.
thanks for the clarification thats exactly what i meant
H
 
True.

The justice system has fallen prey to too many "free" thinkers. Its a crying shame when a criminal has more rights than a victim or their family. Way tooooooo many libutards in the justice business.

This where the phrase"innocent until proven guilty" comes into play.
 
Spark plugs a burglary tool ? ONLY in California does such nonsense fly, least my centerpunch is legal to carry.

The ceramic is spark plugs is used all over the world to smash windows efficiently and with relative stealth. In London they call them 'ninja rocks'.
 
True.

The justice system has fallen prey to too many "free" thinkers. Its a crying shame when a criminal has more rights than a victim or their family. Way tooooooo many libutards in the justice business.

That's not true at all. It's a crying shame when one can be brought up on charges they have nothing to do with and have their life ruined whilst exercising ZERO rights.

Victims or family members should never have more rights than the accused. People don't think clearly after a tragedy, certainly not clear enough to impartially decide what's right and wrong.
 
That's not true at all. It's a crying shame when one can be brought up on charges they have nothing to do with and have their life ruined whilst exercising ZERO rights.

Victims or family members should never have more rights than the accused. People don't think clearly after a tragedy, certainly not clear enough to impartially decide what's right and wrong.

Don't agree with a single word you just wrote -- not a single one.

Tragedies include all sorts of situations where people have to exercise cold, sober decision making to stay alive. Happens all the time and people exhibit those properties.

I also believe the US Constitution, federal laws, state laws, county and municipal statutes all contain various expressed rights of people. The entire court system is predicated upon the notion that burden of proof is upon the accuser or prosecutor.

Without question many people are acquited who likely did the crime. Few are convicted who are actually innocent. A few more are convicted and then have their convictions later overturned due to changes in evidence or upon appeal process. Many times, these people acquited join the first category I described.

Ken
 
Don't agree with a single word you just wrote -- not a single one.

Tragedies include all sorts of situations where people have to exercise cold, sober decision making to stay alive. Happens all the time and people exhibit those properties.

I also believe the US Constitution, federal laws, state laws, county and municipal statutes all contain various expressed rights of people. The entire court system is predicated upon the notion that burden of proof is upon the accuser or prosecutor.

Without question many people are acquited who likely did the crime. Few are convicted who are actually innocent. A few more are convicted and then have their convictions later overturned due to changes in evidence or upon appeal process. Many times, these people acquited join the first category I described.

Ken

Ken, have you ever been arrested or given an extremely large ticketed fine for something you haven't done?

A scenario for you: You are home alone in the middle of a week. You're happy that you've been given a day off, and you're positive you're going to screw around on the computer for a little while. You hear a muffled gunshot. You sit thinking about whether it could've actually been a gunshot for a few seconds when you hear another. You're almost positive, but it sounded funny to you, so you head out to your backyard. When you look over the fence into your neighbor's yard, you see him there dying so you immediately dial 911. After a brief search, the police turn up the murder weapon in a nearby field. There is virtually no evidence and the gun has been wiped. You give your statement as the police treat you professionally, but you're able to pick up a slight air of contempt from them. A few weeks later, you're brought in for questioning much to your surprise. They ask you about 'your' 9MM pistol. You tell them that you haven't had one for a long time and they roll their eyes. You're frustrated and confused, so you start being rude to the cops about how you didn't do anything wrong and you were the one who showed up to help. They think the murder weapon is yours because you live in a state where pistols aren't registered and they don't know what happened to the one you used to have. His survivng family members have pointed out that you and the victim had neighborly arguments from time to time, and that he complained about you. They know you had an old 9MM.

Now you're arrested and subsequently shocked, embarassed and angry. There is no evidence that you've done anything wrong, but their circumstantial reasoning and evidence points to you as their only lead.

This can and does happen to people all the time. I know quite a few attorneys, and it's never as simple as having not enough evidence, especially in smaller jurisdictions. They can and will try you, and you can only hope the jury realizes that there is a HUGE reasonable doubt, but the family members of the victim are SURE you did it now. They trust that the police are doing the right thing because they've arrested you, and they're promised justice.

It's easy to talk about how the criminal justice system is supposed to work if you've never been through it. Grand Jurys assume that police have done their research and will put indicte just about anything. Rarely do warrants get denied, because they want to remain on a good working basis with officers.

Prosecutors don't worry about what's right and wrong, they worry about the task set before them.

Ciminal defense attorneys are not the scum of the earth, they are the last line of defense from having our rights stolen from us by politicians.

People assume that they could never be on the wrong side of the fence, because a lack of a criminal history and clearly it's 'a different kind of people' that get into trouble with the law. Having elitist beliefs are all fine and dandy until you get steamrolled.

Why should people not be allowed to carry sparkplugs?
 
Prosecutors don't worry about what's right and wrong, they worry about the task set before them.

Ciminal defense attorneys are not the scum of the earth, they are the last line of defense from having our rights stolen from us by politicians.

People assume that they could never be on the wrong side of the fence, because a lack of a criminal history and clearly it's 'a different kind of people' that get into trouble with the law. Having elitist beliefs are all fine and dandy until you get steamrolled.

Why should people not be allowed to carry sparkplugs?
one must assume you do live on this planet
most of my friends and they are my friends
are criminal defense attorneys
they will admit what they do and what they are
they laugh at me for believing them
and you could say why should people not be allowed to carry a gun
if you do not mean any harm to anyone
wheres the problem
there is a large difference in life and what it should be
i understand you wish to protect the innocent
i believe we all do
but there are far more guilty than inocent
H
 
Don't agree with a single word you just wrote -- not a single one.

Tragedies include all sorts of situations where people have to exercise cold, sober decision making to stay alive. Happens all the time and people exhibit those properties.

I also believe the US Constitution, federal laws, state laws, county and municipal statutes all contain various expressed rights of people. The entire court system is predicated upon the notion that burden of proof is upon the accuser or prosecutor.

Without question many people are acquited who likely did the crime. Few are convicted who are actually innocent. A few more are convicted and then have their convictions later overturned due to changes in evidence or upon appeal process. Many times, these people acquited join the first category I described.

Ken

i agree with every single word you just wrote:salute:
 
Why should people not be allowed to carry sparkplugs?

Because the ceramic shards will shatter tempered glass with no effort at all. (I looked it up on youtube)

Keep in mind that even if it is illegal to carry a sparkplug, you are protected from unlawful searches under the 4th amendment. A police officer can't just stop you and tell you to turn out your pockets. They must first have probable cause to search you, and even then, you can refuse to consent to the search. The officer is going to search you anyway, but making it known that you do not consent will help you in court later.Anyways, the law is there as a deterrent to criminals, not to imprison upstanding citizens who accidentally have sparkplugs in their pockets.
 
I do believe that's the first time in my life I've read someone term the effects of the Constitution and American jurisprudence as being "elitist thought." You say you've served in the USAF. Did you really volunteer to defend something with your life (Consitution) that you consider to be "elitist thought?" I'm not buying what you said. Is this really what you are thinking?

And no, tigisfat, I've never been arrested and I've never gotten a traffic ticket of any significance where I was totally innocent. Many times I have avoided being pulled over when I could have, or had the officer on scene listen to my honest confession and issue me a warning.

I also don't go twenty miles an hour over the posted speed limit either!

I also largely expect I can continue to live my life in America without fear of being arrested. I have even more faith that if I should be, that it would be due to my decision making being rather poor.

Ken
 
laws are strange and different from country to country
in the UK the police do not need a reason to search you
if you look suspicious then they can search you
its still against the law to take a cigarette lighter on a plane here
i wish i could say the same as Ken but i have had some tickets
and spent a few nights in hotel california:salute:
mind you with the exception of the tickets
i was innocent

H
 
laws are strange and different from country to country
in the UK the police do not need a reason to search you
if you look suspicious then they can search you
its still against the law to take a cigarette lighter on a plane here
i wish i could say the same as Ken but i have had some tickets
and spent a few nights in hotel california:salute:
mind you with the exception of the tickets
i was innocent

H
For sure! I was reading a magazine article about the "Antisocial Behavior Orders" in the UK. The police can just walk up to you if you look suspicious, search you and put you on a watch list. If you get called out for antisocial behavior too many times you can be banned from certain areas of town and they put up warning posters with your face on it. It seems so odd, but then again, we have some crazy laws in the US too.
 
I do believe that's the first time in my life I've read someone term the effects of the Constitution and American jurisprudence as being "elitist thought."
Either you misread or I didn't write clearly enough. The 'elitist thought' is about assuming that your own responsible decision making could never land you in jail because you're too good for it. The same thought pattern ignores legal travesties until they personally get nailed.


You say you've served in the USAF. Did you really volunteer to defend something with your life (Consitution) that you consider to be "elitist thought?" I'm not buying what you said. Is this really what you are thinking?
Guys, I love my country and it's ideals. I swore to defend it with my life and fight it's battles. While I was in, I was more quiet about my views and followed orders. No matter what president or politician held any office, it was still my duty to perform as directed. What I speak of now (more freely that I'm out) is an erosion of rights that's ongoing at a more rapid rate than ever, and a transition to modern 'soft' socialism.

And no, tigisfat, I've never been arrested and I've never gotten a traffic ticket of any significance where I was totally innocent. Many times I have avoided being pulled over when I could have, or had the officer on scene listen to my honest confession and issue me a warning.
I assume you hadn't been. I've never been in trouble, but I've had more than a few VERY bad experiences with the law, mostly in small towns where there is no oversight. I've known a few people who've gotten away from things scot free they were guilty of, and I've known more than a few who did absolutely nothing wrong and got the book thrown at them.

Keep in mind I have the utmost respect for MOST sworn officers, as I have many family members who've served in various capacities as law enforcement. There is still a problem with lawmakers everywhere, and the occassional bitter cop.




I also largely expect I can continue to live my life in America without fear of being arrested. I have even more faith that if I should be, that it would be due to my decision making being rather poor.
I only hope everyone in this thread is that lucky, but you can't guarantee it, you can only help your chances by not being a clown, as you've said. Noone abides 100% of the laws 100% of the time, and lawmakers continue to encroach on what should be harmless behavior, such as carrying sparkplugs.
 
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